Libya`s ``Government`` in Disarray After Largest Party Quits ``Congress``

You claim that this is all for there own good, and to an extent perhaps it is but you do realize that Mali asked for French support, It was not forced upon them so the whole claim that the French are going after resources is just weak. The former colonial power's through there past of mistreatment (to put it lightly) now have an obligation to aid there former colonies which they are doing at the request of those colonies. You claim the US is there for resources yet the locations you mentioned such as Somalia and Nigeria are trouble spot's that with out them would be worse off (Pirates freely roaming the horn of Africa as well as Terrorists being able to strike ships at will) and Nigeria where there have been a number of domestic problems including massacres. To get any sort of decent attention you must list the good along with the bad, The success with the failures but by not doing so you are simply ranting. Yes the US, UK, French, China etc etc have used and abused there power in the past and even to an extent today, but that does not mean every conflict or country they go into is for there own 'Evil' purposes.
 
von_noobie said:
Point taken, My apologies for any insult taken.

As for what I am, Im an Aussie and damn proud of it.

As for knowledge on Libya, I have merely stated proven fact's about Gaddafi and that there were sieges in the war (something you claimed Gaddafi never did) yet you have not even tried to discredit any of my point's, I'm assuming it is because you can not due to them actually being true. If you can prove that Gaddafi has never supported evil bastard's before then I'll cede the argument to you Sir, If not then just be a man and admit he is not as good and peaceful as you make out.
Click to expand...

Apology accepted .. let's have a fresh start.

My point has never been that Gaddafi was a saint. My point is that he was not the monster that western media makes him out to be, nor did the vast majority of the Libyan people want him dead or their country attacked. I've demonstrated those truths repeatedly.

As in any civil war, there were sieges, but those sieges did not come solely from Gaddafi .. again, as I've clearly demonstrated. The destruction of Bani Walid by the US and NATO is yet another example.

How many "evil bastards" has the US, UK, and Australia supported? If supporting evil bastards was a cause for invasion, all three would be under attack.

Are you aware that the US and NATO used AL QUEDA as their puppet "rebel" army? Why do you think everything in Libya now comes out of Benghazi? Why do you think the CIA was there?

Question: How do you "humanitarianly" bomb the hell out of densely populated cities? I posted a video that illustrates what happens when you do that. It was filled with images of dead, blown up, and screaming women and children. There was nothing humanitarian about the invasion of Libya. It was based on lies and deception, no differently than the invasion of Iraq.

The reality of NATO's invasion that Libya has been destroyed and is in a state of chaos. No differently than with our invasion of Iraq. Libya WAS a peaceful nation that threatened no other nation. Destroyed because it has oil.

These are wars for resources. Surely you cannot possibly be naive enough not to be aware of the global resource wars. The West doesn't give a rat's ass about human life. Iraq didn't demonstrate that to you? More countless dead innocent people .. just because we could.

Additionally, just like Saddam, Gaddafi sought to move his country away from the dollar and towards a different currency. I'm not sure if you're aware of how the US reacts to any nation that threatens the dollar .. but if you don't know, you should find out.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything you don't want to believe. I'm simply stating what I have researched, see, and believe bASED ON EVIDENCE .. not was MSM tells me..
 
Aoxomoxoa said:
Most of those sub-Saharan countries have tolerant Sufi Islam governments which have long been targeted by terrorists like Mokhtar Belmokhtar. He is an extremely nasty piece of work and should be hunted down and eliminated post haste. It is a war that has been a long time coming and there is no avoiding it, unless you want to see a repeat of '90s Algeria all over this region. You seem incapable of seeing this for what it is and prefer to fall back on sloganising and bombast. I notice that you have deliberately chosen to avoid addressing Kofi Annan's thoughts on the subject, no doubt because they are diametrically opposed to your own views. Here is an article from 2005 which really nails what is going on there.

http://www.crisisgroup.org/en/regio...t-terrorism-in-the-sahel-fact-or-fiction.aspx
Click to expand...

While I respect Annan, my answer to what he had to say in 2005 is posted just above yours (post 58).

The so-called "war on terrorism" is a fraud. It is a war against human life. It has led to perpetual war, and perpetual mass-murder by the very elements that are supposed to be fighting against it. You don't seem to know that.

Africa has been a known target for western corporations for a long time. You don't seem to know that either.

You seem really blind and naive to what is really going on in the world. That's why you think America should stay in Afghanistan .. because you're blind and don't know what you're talking about.
 
The so-called "war on terrorism" is a fraud. It is a war against human life. It has led to perpetual war, and perpetual mass-murder by the very elements that are supposed to be fighting against it. You don't seem to know that.
Click to expand...

So fighting against groups that have committed violent act's not against government's but civilians is a fraud? The belief that it has led to a perpetual war is simply that of a view, Not a fact as there have been in recent year's massive leap's in communications with multiple groups that are viewed as terrorist organizations to creating peace. Some times in life you need to offer the stick before the carrot, Which appears to to have been done.

I'm not as smart as I used to be due to an SUV deciding to play chicken with me (bloody hurts lol) so I do not fully understand your meaning behind 'and perpetual mass-murder by the very elements that are supposed to be fighting against it.', From what I can see it can mean one of two things, Either your implying the US/NATO are mass murderer's or that the war is leading the AQ and various other groups to commit mass murders? Please do clarify so that I can reply properly with out any confusion being created mate.

Cheers.
 
Aoxomoxoa said:
Didn't you support the intervention in Libya?
Click to expand...

Partly. I support our decision to help the rebels, but actually going in country I did not (and do not). It's like if my neighbor is building a deck and asks me for a hammer. I'll lend him a hammer (well, not really, I don't lend out tools), but I won't go over and help him build the deck.
 
von_noobie said:
So fighting against groups that have committed violent act's not against government's but civilians is a fraud? The belief that it has led to a perpetual war is simply that of a view, Not a fact as there have been in recent year's massive leap's in communications with multiple groups that are viewed as terrorist organizations to creating peace. Some times in life you need to offer the stick before the carrot, Which appears to to have been done.

I'm not as smart as I used to be due to an SUV deciding to play chicken with me (bloody hurts lol) so I do not fully understand your meaning behind 'and perpetual mass-murder by the very elements that are supposed to be fighting against it.', From what I can see it can mean one of two things, Either your implying the US/NATO are mass murderer's or that the war is leading the AQ and various other groups to commit mass murders? Please do clarify so that I can reply properly with out any confusion being created mate.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

No problem brother.

The war on terror is a fraud and the US and NATO are mass-murderers.

I repeat .. countless innocent people are dead in Iraq because the US and NATO attacked and destroyed it based on deceit, false pretenses and lies. I'm sure I don't have to detail those false pretenses for you to acknowledge the absolute truth of that statement.

Where do you think Al Queda came from? Answer: The CIA. Check the history of the Muhajadeen if you aren't already aware of that.

In our global quest for power, the shadow of the Al Queda has always been there to support our goals. Al Queda in Iraq .. so we must invade and destroy the country while mass-murdering countless innocent people .. for their own good of course.

Al Queda in Libya .. which has been known for a long time because Gaddafi was fighting against them .. but suddenly Al Queda are the good guys so the US and NATO are their partners in a war or oil and strategic power. Why did Islamists and Al Queda hate Gaddafi? .. Because he was not one of them. He gave women more rights than anywhere in the Arab world, would not impose Sharia Law, and he was basically a socialist. That's what the Jamahiriya and the Green Book were all about. Gaddafi was a socialist who believed in the power of people.

It's hard to make a monster out of the man who built the Great Man-Made River.

Gaddafi transfomed Libya from the poorest nation in the woeld in 1951 to Libyans enjoying the best standard of living in all of Africa, Brazil, Russia, and Saudi Arabia. Transformed its people from being among the most illiterate in the world to being among the worlds most educated.

Hard to make a monster out of that.

But under the CIA's direction, Al Queda was armed and trained, then militarily supported to overthrow Gaddafi at the very time that western oil contracts were runniung out and before Gaddafi could unite black Africa. with a new currency, the Gold Dinar .. which was to be supported by Libya’s massive gold reserves of 144 tonnes. The gold coin was to be accepted throughout Africa and the Middle East and would have been the only currency accepted for purchases of oil.

Let me repeat .. AL QUEDA WAS USED TO ATTACK LIBYA. The same Al Queda that supposedly were behind 9/11. The very same Al Queda that the West has spent trillions of dollars "fighting."

Syria blew up .. and the same shadowy figure of Al Queda and the CIA is there yet again.

In Mali, a US-trained leader suddenly become Al Queda and joins the Islamists.

Here's how it works .. If you are are a foreigner and you stand between western profit and domination of your country .. you are Al Queda.

If you're a 12 year-old boy walking to the store with a friend and a drone blows you into a 1,000 pieces .. you are Al Queda.

The war on terror is a fraud that allows the west to attack any and everybody they chose. Here in the US, the American president can kill ANYONE he chooses without trial, conviction, or even the appearance of any guilt. He could kill you. There is no rule of law.

I reapeat .. there is no rule of law. Any small nation can be attacked and destroyed for any baseless reason.

The good news if the rise of the SCO to stand as a buffer between sanity and evil. That's why Syria is not Libya today.

May I suggest that you rely less on MSM and seek truth for yourself,
 
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blackascoal said:
No problem brother.

The war on terror is a fraud and the US and NATO are mass-murderers.

I repeat .. countless innocent people are dead in Iraq because the US and NATO attacked and destroyed it based on deceit, false pretenses and lies. I'm sure I don't have to detail those false pretenses for you to acknowledge the absolute truth of that statement.

Where do you think Al Queda came from? Answer: The CIA. Check the history of the Muhajadeen if you aren't already aware of that.

In our global quest for power, the shadow of the Al Queda has always been there to support our goals. Al Queda in Iraq .. so we must invade and destroy the country while mass-murdering countless innocent people .. for their own good of course.

Al Queda in Libya .. which has been known for a long time because Gaddafi was fighting against them .. but suddenly Al Queda are the good guys so the US and NATO are their partners in a war or oil and strategic power. Why did Islamists and Al Queda hate Gaddafi? .. Because he was not one of them. He gave women more rights than anywhere in the Arab world, would not impose Sharia Law, and he was basically a socialist. That's what the Jamahiriya and the Green Book were all about. Gaddafi was a socialist who believed in the power of people.

It's hard to make a monster out of the man who built the Great Man-Made River.

Gaddafi transfomed Libya from the poorest nation in the woeld in 1951 to Libyans enjoying the best standard of living in all of Africa, Brazil, Russia, and Saudi Arabia. Transformed its people from being among the most illiterate in the world to being among the worlds most educated.

Hard to make a monster out of that.

But under the CIA's direction, Al Queda was armed and trained, then militarily supported to overthrow Gaddafi at the very time that western oil contracts were runniung out and before Gaddafi could unite black Africa. with a new currency, the Gold Dinar .. which was to be supported by Libya’s massive gold reserves of 144 tonnes. The gold coin was to be accepted throughout Africa and the Middle East and would have been the only currency accepted for purchases of oil.

Let me repeat .. AL QUEDA WAS USED TO ATTACK LIBYA. The same Al Queda that supposedly were behind 9/11. The very same Al Queda that the West has spent trillions of dollars "fighting."

Syria blew up .. and the same shadowy figure of Al Queda and the CIA is there yet again.

In Mali, a US-trained leader suddenly become Al Queda and joins the Islamists.

Here's how it works .. If you are are a foreigner and you stand between western profit and domination of your country .. you are Al Queda.

If you're a 12 year-old boy walking to the store with a friend and a drone blows you into a 1,000 pieces .. you are Al Queda.

The war on terror is a fraud that allows the west to attack any and everybody they chose. Here in the US, the American president can kill ANYONE he chooses without trial, conviction, or even the appearance of any guilt. He could kill you. There is no rule of law.

I reapeat .. there is no rule of law. Any small nation can be attacked and destroyed for any baseless reason.

The good news if the rise of the SCO to stand as a buffer between sanity and evil. That's why Syria is not Libya today.

May I suggest that you rely less on MSM and seek truth for yourself,
Click to expand...

I think everybody knows about the Muhajadeen and the CIA by now, it is hardly a secret. I suggest that you go get a copy of Charlie Wilson's War.

The reason there is so much shit today is because the West abandoned Afghanistan and allowed the Taliban in. I notice that you studiously avoid laying any of the blame on the Russians and their misadventures there or indeed the Pakistani ISI and Saudis who did much to give succour to the Taliban. The West missed a golden opportunity after 9/11 to sort out Afghanistan but the Iraq war was a huge mistake that left a vacuum there for the Islamists to gain power. I watched an interview a while back where Benazir Bhutto, just prior to her death, said that Pakistan had made some very bad mistakes with the Taliban, especially with their policy of using them as a proxy army.

http://middleeast.about.com/od/afghanistan/ss/me080914a_4.htm
 
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blackascoal said:
I would support a UN intervention in Palestine that protects Palestinians and Israelis.

A buffer or demilitarized zone.
Click to expand...

What about Ruanda, East Timor, Sierra Leone, Bosnia, Kosovo in recent times? Or going further back, Korea, Iran-Iraq, Zimbabwe, Angola, Mozambique, Congo and Sudan.
 
Threedee said:
BAC, is there an intervention you would actually support?
Click to expand...

I remember nearly coming to blows with a close friend of mine over the KAL 007 that was shot out of the sky thirty years ago by a Russian Su-15. I'm sure that BAC would have said much the same thing at the time or maybe even now? It was that event more than any other which made me realise just how insane some of those on the Left can be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
http://www.conservapedia.com/KAL_007:_Timeline_of_Interception_and_Shootdown
 
blackascoal said:
No problem brother.

The war on terror is a fraud and the US and NATO are mass-murderers.

I repeat .. countless innocent people are dead in Iraq because the US and NATO attacked and destroyed it based on deceit, false pretenses and lies. I'm sure I don't have to detail those false pretenses for you to acknowledge the absolute truth of that statement.

Where do you think Al Queda came from? Answer: The CIA. Check the history of the Muhajadeen if you aren't already aware of that.

In our global quest for power, the shadow of the Al Queda has always been there to support our goals. Al Queda in Iraq .. so we must invade and destroy the country while mass-murdering countless innocent people .. for their own good of course.

Al Queda in Libya .. which has been known for a long time because Gaddafi was fighting against them .. but suddenly Al Queda are the good guys so the US and NATO are their partners in a war or oil and strategic power. Why did Islamists and Al Queda hate Gaddafi? .. Because he was not one of them. He gave women more rights than anywhere in the Arab world, would not impose Sharia Law, and he was basically a socialist. That's what the Jamahiriya and the Green Book were all about. Gaddafi was a socialist who believed in the power of people.

It's hard to make a monster out of the man who built the Great Man-Made River.

Gaddafi transfomed Libya from the poorest nation in the woeld in 1951 to Libyans enjoying the best standard of living in all of Africa, Brazil, Russia, and Saudi Arabia. Transformed its people from being among the most illiterate in the world to being among the worlds most educated.

Hard to make a monster out of that.

But under the CIA's direction, Al Queda was armed and trained, then militarily supported to overthrow Gaddafi at the very time that western oil contracts were runniung out and before Gaddafi could unite black Africa. with a new currency, the Gold Dinar .. which was to be supported by Libya’s massive gold reserves of 144 tonnes. The gold coin was to be accepted throughout Africa and the Middle East and would have been the only currency accepted for purchases of oil.

Let me repeat .. AL QUEDA WAS USED TO ATTACK LIBYA. The same Al Queda that supposedly were behind 9/11. The very same Al Queda that the West has spent trillions of dollars "fighting."

Syria blew up .. and the same shadowy figure of Al Queda and the CIA is there yet again.

In Mali, a US-trained leader suddenly become Al Queda and joins the Islamists.

Here's how it works .. If you are are a foreigner and you stand between western profit and domination of your country .. you are Al Queda.

If you're a 12 year-old boy walking to the store with a friend and a drone blows you into a 1,000 pieces .. you are Al Queda.

The war on terror is a fraud that allows the west to attack any and everybody they chose. Here in the US, the American president can kill ANYONE he chooses without trial, conviction, or even the appearance of any guilt. He could kill you. There is no rule of law.

I reapeat .. there is no rule of law. Any small nation can be attacked and destroyed for any baseless reason.

The good news if the rise of the SCO to stand as a buffer between sanity and evil. That's why Syria is not Libya today.

May I suggest that you rely less on MSM and seek truth for yourself,
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification, But I'm afraid I don't agree with you.

Are the US and NATO mass murderer's? No. Have there military operations led to civilian casualties, Yes but not at there hand's. A great many of these civilian casualties died not at the hand's of NATO and the US but due to suicide bombings and IED's so while the US and NATO could share some responsibility for creating that situation they do not have the full blame nor the majority of it as it was AQ that decide blowing up women and children was an acceptable military tactic.

As for the war on terror being a fraud,

Afghanistan I agree with 100%. The reason's for going in there where sound and justified so it was no fraud all it was was a lack of long term planning but that does not make that conflict a fraud.

Iraq I don't agree with there reason's that they gave for going in there though that does not mean I don't agree with going in there at all. In hind sight they should have taken Saddam out in the first Gulf war, He was a monster that turned chemical weapon's on his own people so there is no excuse to not take him out. So on the 'WMD's' excuse I wholeheartedly disagree with Iraq as it was all fabrication's but on a moral ground I'm behind Iraq 100%. Again Iraq has become what it is due to a lack of long term planning.

Libya I agree with 100%, Your belief that the US trained up all of those 'AQ terrorists' is just that, A belief. What you seem to ignore is that AQ is a heavily fractured organization, With some being more open to change while others being stuck in the old ways. Many only link onto AQ for simple mutual support, They are not idiots they do realize that alone they stand no chance but united they have a better chance. The fact is in Libya the protests against Gaddafi (In which there seems to have been more protesting then those who supported him) turned into a revolution, one that would have caused far more casualties if nothing was done so do they aid the dictator with a factual history of supporting rape, mutilation, dictators, terrorists etc or the group that while having AQ element's (which is all they where, A minority) is fighting against this man to bring a change. Personally I think the latter is the best option, Gaddafi build's a river so past transgression's are erased from the history books? Fuck that.

Oh and you say that the US was co-operating with AQ? Yet I can only find mountains of evidence that the CIA and MI6 were co-operating with Gaddafi, Go so far as to extradite Abdelhakim Belhadj to Libya a good 7-8 years prior, Must have been a tricky plan to send back all those AQ guys just 'knowing' that they would over throw him from there jails -_-
 
von_noobie said:
Thanks for the clarification, But I'm afraid I don't agree with you.

Are the US and NATO mass murderer's? No. Have there military operations led to civilian casualties, Yes but not at there hand's. A great many of these civilian casualties died not at the hand's of NATO and the US but due to suicide bombings and IED's so while the US and NATO could share some responsibility for creating that situation they do not have the full blame nor the majority of it as it was AQ that decide blowing up women and children was an acceptable military tactic.

As for the war on terror being a fraud,

Afghanistan I agree with 100%. The reason's for going in there where sound and justified so it was no fraud all it was was a lack of long term planning but that does not make that conflict a fraud.

Iraq I don't agree with there reason's that they gave for going in there though that does not mean I don't agree with going in there at all. In hind sight they should have taken Saddam out in the first Gulf war, He was a monster that turned chemical weapon's on his own people so there is no excuse to not take him out. So on the 'WMD's' excuse I wholeheartedly disagree with Iraq as it was all fabrication's but on a moral ground I'm behind Iraq 100%. Again Iraq has become what it is due to a lack of long term planning.

Libya I agree with 100%, Your belief that the US trained up all of those 'AQ terrorists' is just that, A belief. What you seem to ignore is that AQ is a heavily fractured organization, With some being more open to change while others being stuck in the old ways. Many only link onto AQ for simple mutual support, They are not idiots they do realize that alone they stand no chance but united they have a better chance. The fact is in Libya the protests against Gaddafi (In which there seems to have been more protesting then those who supported him) turned into a revolution, one that would have caused far more casualties if nothing was done so do they aid the dictator with a factual history of supporting rape, mutilation, dictators, terrorists etc or the group that while having AQ element's (which is all they where, A minority) is fighting against this man to bring a change. Personally I think the latter is the best option, Gaddafi build's a river so past transgression's are erased from the history books? Fuck that.

Oh and you say that the US was co-operating with AQ? Yet I can only find mountains of evidence that the CIA and MI6 were co-operating with Gaddafi, Go so far as to extradite Abdelhakim Belhadj to Libya a good 7-8 years prior, Must have been a tricky plan to send back all those AQ guys just 'knowing' that they would over throw him from there jails -_-
Click to expand...

BAC thinks that 9/11 was all a conspiracy by Bush and it was an inside job, just saying.
 
Aoxomoxoa said:
I remember nearly coming to blows with a close friend of mine over the KAL 007 that was shot out of the sky thirty years ago by a Russian Su-15. I'm sure that BAC would have said much the same thing at the time or maybe even now? It was that event more than any other which made me realise just how insane some of those on the Left can be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
http://www.conservapedia.com/KAL_007:_Timeline_of_Interception_and_Shootdown
Click to expand...

You have a difficult enough time trying to arrange your own thoughts. You don't have the slightest clue about what I would do about anything or what I would support.

It is the lowest form of argument to assume what someone else would do just so you can have an point.

I answered the question just fine by myself.
 
Aoxomoxoa said:
I remember nearly coming to blows with a close friend of mine over the KAL 007 that was shot out of the sky thirty years ago by a Russian Su-15. I'm sure that BAC would have said much the same thing at the time or maybe even now? It was that event more than any other which made me realise just how insane some of those on the Left can be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
http://www.conservapedia.com/KAL_007:_Timeline_of_Interception_and_Shootdown
Click to expand...

You have a difficult enough time trying to arrange your own thoughts. You don't have the slightest clue about what I would do about anything or what I would support.

It is the lowest form of argument to assume what someone else would do just so you can have an point.

I answered the question just fine by myself.
 
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