The Rise of China

[Lowaicue]

Mao was responsible for the deaths of his own people .. thus it was incumbent upon the Chinese people to get rid of him. He did not spread his terror all over the world .. and therein lies the difference.

"[Mao] turned China from a feudal backwater into one of the most powerful countries in the World ... The Chinese system he overthrew was backward and corrupt; few would argue the fact that he dragged China into the 20th century. But at a cost in human lives that is staggering."
— Mao Tse Tung: China's Peasant Emperor, A&E Biography, 2005

The Chinese did not get rid of Mao. He got old, suffered from alzheimers and several other dibilitating diseases and popped his clogs in 1976. Few mourned his passing but most are forced to admit that, although the price was high, the rewards he left china were huge and enabled the country to become what it is today.
When I met him he was less than talkative. Well he had been dead for twelve years! He was looking rather... yellow as I remember!

 

[cancel2 2022]

The answer lies in the tea.
Tea was imported into Britain in the 17C and was exceedingley expensive. It was paid for, as were all the accoutrements of tea, the pots, cups etc etc, in silver. Tea became synonymous with stately homes and parasols but its purchase endangered the stocks of silver held by Britain.
Meanwhile poppies were grown in India and produced opium, a medicine at that time. It was introduced to China and was used to get back the enormous quantities of silver held by the Chinese.
So the subjugation was the by product of capitalist trade.
The second Opium war, (also called the Arrow War, after a Chinese smuggling vessel the Arrow) came as a result of a complex series of raids and arrests of smugglers in victoria Harbour. The first 'blows' were by two drunken sailors out on the lash and wanting more beer. They walked into a small store, so the story goes, and demanded booze. The owner refused to serve them so they killed him!
Within a short while a British navy ship was firing onto the mainland of kowloon.
There is also an extensive official history which, I'm sure, formed the basis for countless stories of evil foreigners and deeds of derring-do. Part of which involves an island in the Pearl estuary, close to Hong Kong, but within the Chinese borders, called Ling Ding. Ling Ding was the hide out and centre for the opium smuggling trade into Guangzhou.
When I arrived in Hong Kong Ling Ding had a different claim to faim. It was, as I understand, almost entirely populated by prostitutes and brothels and was the only part of the Peoples Republic of Chine that foreigners could visit without a visa. A friend told me that when you get off the boat you just give the guy in uniform a few bucks and go ashore for the night. One of my regrets is that I never visited this place! Just as a tourist, you understand.

I would have thought Ding A Ling was more appropriate a name for that island.

 

[blackascoal]

The Chinese did not get rid of Mao. He got old, suffered from alzheimers and several other dibilitating diseases and popped his clogs in 1976. Few mourned his passing but most are forced to admit that, although the price was high, the rewards he left china were huge and enabled the country to become what it is today.
When I met him he was less than talkative. Well he had been dead for twelve years! He was looking rather... yellow as I remember!

I know they never got rid of Mao .. but if he was the monster that he was painted to be, it would have been the responsibility of the Chinese people to get rid of him .. and given that they never did, could he have been the monster that he's painted to be?

That was my point good brother.

 

[Lowaicue]

I know they never got rid of Mao .. but if he was the monster that he was painted to be, it would have been the responsibility of the Chinese people to get rid of him .. and given that they never did, could he have been the monster that he's painted to be?

That was my point good brother.

You are judging, as we all must, by the standards of your own world. remember that the cultural revolution started in the late 60s orchestrated in the name of Mao by his less than nice wife. That would not happen in any country whose population had knowledge of the world and its possibilities.
The Chinese, most of them, did not know they were downtrodden. They had been fed a diet of fear of the west. Beijing had built and was building mile after mile of tunnels for the political elite for when (not if) for when the evil americans launched the war. If you were a landlord you were sent to the country to plant rice. If you were a teacher the same fate waited for you. Everyone was frightened of everyone.
Gordon (the name I gave my Beijing salesman), was at school at the beginning of the cultural revolution. He was given a red arm band and the job of criticising his class teacher. He told me that if he did not do his job properly he would have been beaten, possibly to death. Success here was to make the teacher cry and apologise for being a capitalist roader and an intellectual.
It was not until 1989, a year after Deng had started to open the country (I first visited in 1985 - I said somewhere else it was 1986 but that was my poor memory) that university students managed to group together to discuss their plight and the lone figure before the tank in Tien Men Square was the evidence.
So in 1976, the deaths had not been fully reported, indeed many people still believed that the Great Leap Forward had been a success, so no one was in a position to even think about overthrowing the man they called Chairman Mao, the great helmsman.
Most people who did know what was happening were promoted within the party and live a very comfortable life, if not they ran away, mostly to Hong Kong. I met one of the elite on my second visit in 1986. Mr. Fu ran a very efficient engineering factory and must have been one of a very small handful of men who had a credit card. Not just a credit card but a platinum credit card! Very nice man actually.
OK. I'm not writing a book. Sorry to bore you. Goodnight.

 

[blackascoal]

You are judging, as we all must, by the standards of your own world. remember that the cultural revolution started in the late 60s orchestrated in the name of Mao by his less than nice wife. That would not happen in any country whose population had knowledge of the world and its possibilities.
The Chinese, most of them, did not know they were downtrodden. They had been fed a diet of fear of the west. Beijing had built and was building mile after mile of tunnels for the political elite for when (not if) for when the evil americans launched the war. If you were a landlord you were sent to the country to plant rice. If you were a teacher the same fate waited for you. Everyone was frightened of everyone.
Gordon (the name I gave my Beijing salesman), was at school at the beginning of the cultural revolution. He was given a red arm band and the job of criticising his class teacher. He told me that if he did not do his job properly he would have been beaten, possibly to death. Success here was to make the teacher cry and apologise for being a capitalist roader and an intellectual.
It was not until 1989, a year after Deng had started to open the country (I first visited in 1985 - I said somewhere else it was 1986 but that was my poor memory) that university students managed to group together to discuss their plight and the lone figure before the tank in Tien Men Square was the evidence.
So in 1976, the deaths had not been fully reported, indeed many people still believed that the Great Leap Forward had been a success, so no one was in a position to even think about overthrowing the man they called Chairman Mao, the great helmsman.
Most people who did know what was happening were promoted within the party and live a very comfortable life, if not they ran away, mostly to Hong Kong. I met one of the elite on my second visit in 1986. Mr. Fu ran a very efficient engineering factory and must have been one of a very small handful of men who had a credit card. Not just a credit card but a platinum credit card! Very nice man actually.
OK. I'm not writing a book. Sorry to bore you. Goodnight.

Actually I'm agreeing with you.

 

[Granule]

Actually I'm agreeing with you.

Even Lowa doesn't get you. That should tell you something, Ms Marx.

 

[Lowaicue]

Actually I'm agreeing with you.

Yes, I know you are. I mean that when any of us form opinions and make judgements we are slaves to the inputs of our own experience and our own culture. I was painting you a picture really of how entirely different from anything we in the west have experienced, China was and is. I obviously came across incorrectly for which I apologise.
And granule is quite wrong. I DO 'get' you so dont worry on that score.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

I know they never got rid of Mao .. but if he was the monster that he was painted to be, it would have been the responsibility of the Chinese people to get rid of him .. and given that they never did, could he have been the monster that he's painted to be?

That was my point good brother.

Are you trying to suggest that the citizens of China had a way to rid thmeselves of Mao?

Pleae explain.

 

[dixon76710]

It appears that you could use a lesson in history ..

A History Lesson: U.S. Intervention in the Middle East Has Always Ended Up Being a Disaster for American Interests ]

Evidently you didnt notice that nothing you provided contradicted a thing I said. The shah was installed in 1941 when his father was forced to abdicate the throne by the british and russians. Would seem that you are the one in need of a history lesson.

 

[Canceled.2014.1]

Evidently you didnt notice that nothing you provided contradicted a thing I said. The shah was installed in 1941 when his father was forced to abdicate the throne by the british and russians. Would seem that you are the one in need of a history lesson.

And if you are claiming we didn't meddle in the internal affairs of iran, you need a history lesson as well. We worked hard to produce a coup which ended the nationalization of the oil production in Iran, and orchestrated the removal of their Prime Minister in the early 50s. My uncle worked for Westinghouse in Iran in the 70s, and he told me there was still much animosity and hatred towards the US for those acts and the subsequent support of the Shah.

 

[blackascoal]

Yes, I know you are. I mean that when any of us form opinions and make judgements we are slaves to the inputs of our own experience and our own culture. I was painting you a picture really of how entirely different from anything we in the west have experienced, China was and is. I obviously came across incorrectly for which I apologise.
And granule is quite wrong. I DO 'get' you so dont worry on that score.

No problem brother.

 

[blackascoal]

Evidently you didnt notice that nothing you provided contradicted a thing I said. The shah was installed in 1941 when his father was forced to abdicate the throne by the british and russians. Would seem that you are the one in need of a history lesson.

I guess reading comprehension is as big a problem for you as a history class.

 

[dixon76710]

I guess reading comprehension is as big a problem for you as a history class.

Silly fool. You said

our installation of the Shah of Iran,

Shah wasnt installed in 1953, you uneducated fool. He was installed in 1941 by the russians and british. This is fucking Jr high history which must be why you are so clueless.

.....was the last Shah of Iran. He ruled Iran from 16 September 1941 until his overthrow by the Iranian Revolution on 11 February 1979.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Reza_Pahlavi

Cant have an "installation" as shah, TWELVE freaking years into his rule as shah.

 

[Canceled.2014.1]

Silly fool. You said



Shah wasnt installed in 1953, you uneducated fool. He was installed in 1941 by the russians and british. This is fucking Jr high history which must be why you are so clueless.



Cant have an "installation" as shah, TWELVE freaking years into his rule as shah.

If there was a coup (which there was) that failed (which it did) and the Shah left the country and spent a little time in exile in Italy (which he did), and then he returned and deposed the Prime Minister (which he did) and this action was orchestrated by the CIA (which it was), then you can make the claim that the Shah was "installed" in 1953.

It was also this removal of a very popular Prime Minister that gained the US the animosity of a generation if iranians.

 

[blackascoal]

If there was a coup (which there was) that failed (which it did) and the Shah left the country and spent a little time in exile in Italy (which he did), and then he returned and deposed the Prime Minister (which he did) and this action was orchestrated by the CIA (which it was), then you can make the claim that the Shah was "installed" in 1953.

It was also this removal of a very popular Prime Minister that gained the US the animosity of a generation if iranians.

Thus .. READING COMPREHENSION.

Thank you for holding his hand and walking him through it. :0)

 

[blackascoal]

Silly fool. You said

Shah wasnt installed in 1953, you uneducated fool. He was installed in 1941 by the russians and british. This is fucking Jr high history which must be why you are so clueless.

Cant have an "installation" as shah, TWELVE freaking years into his rule as shah.

:0) Insults from a guy educated by Wikipedia.

 

[dixon76710]

If there was a coup (which there was) that failed (which it did) and the Shah left the country and spent a little time in exile in Italy (which he did), and then he returned and deposed the Prime Minister (which he did) and this action was orchestrated by the CIA (which it was), then you can make the claim that the Shah was "installed" in 1953..

Leaving Iran for two weeks didnt end his reign as the shah. No formal action was taken, removing his title. No person was installed into his position. "He ruled Iran from 16 September 1941 until his overthrow by the Iranian Revolution on 11 February 1979". Cant be installed as shah when you are already the shah. Since 1941.

 

[Canceled.2014.1]

Leaving Iran for two weeks didnt end his reign as the shah. No formal action was taken, removing his title. No person was installed into his position. "He ruled Iran from 16 September 1941 until his overthrow by the Iranian Revolution on 11 February 1979". Cant be installed as shah when you are already the shah. Since 1941.

Quibble about dates in an attempt to deny what our country did? Sure, thats fine.

But the Primne Minister that we removed was moving Iran towards independence and working towards a better democracy. We ended that.

 

[dixon76710]

:0) Insults from a guy educated by Wikipedia.

I just told you fool, it was Jr High history class. I cant copy and paste from my Jr High history textbook so I used Wikipedia instead. And youve not produced anything to contradict wikipedia so Im not sure of your point ragging on wikipedia. You went to the effort to copy and paste several paragraphs of text, and yet, not a word of it contradicts the wikipedia quote.

 

[dixon76710]

Quibble about dates in an attempt to deny what our country did? Sure, thats fine.

I denied our installation of the shah at any date and have been trying to point out to you uneducated fools that he was installed in 1941 by the British and Russians. Of course you two only love to hate the US so what russia and Britain ACTUALLY did is of no concern to you.