21 to 32 trillion

[Onceler]

Here's what you need to try and get your small mind around... We gave permission for the government to tax our income. We didn't give them permission to take our property. Money is property, we can do with it whatever we please. Once the taxes are paid on the income or dividend, the rest belongs to us, and whatever we choose to do with it, is our business, no one else.

Yes, it's a shame that all these trillions are not in the economy, but have you considered why that is? Seems to me, you'd be looking for ways to ENCOURAGE the "super rich" (guess rich isn't good enough anymore) to invest in business and capitalism? As opposed to trying to find some way to subvert the constitution and take their property against their will.

No, of course they're not going to invest, as long as the U.S. has crushing debt and the dollar continues to weaken - which will only get worse as the super-rich squirrel away more money.

And you're assuming that they're all VC's who would be investing all of that money in American business if not for the horribly oppressive Obama policies. These rich are just hiding their money - putting it away for future generations. It's an inherent flaw in unfettered capitalism; as a small % of the population acquires more of the overall population's wealth, that wealth will become sequestered from that population, for a period of generations if not more. And it will continue to grow in that sequestered state, as those rich gather even more money, leaving even less for the remaining 99.8% of the population.

 

[Disillusioned]

mmmmmmmmmmmm that will take them how many lifetimes to spend?


I sure wish they would start spending a little bit of in here to spur on the economy.


I guess they really dont like the USA very much

Why should they? Turn on the TV and half the people are screaming, "Give us all your money you rich arrogant F***'s it's ours!"

That really seems to you like the attitude seems to be the rich should give up their money because they love america?

 

[Disillusioned]

No, of course they're not going to invest, as long as the U.S. has crushing debt and the dollar continues to weaken - which will only get worse as the super-rich squirrel away more money.

And you're assuming that they're all VC's who would be investing all of that money in American business if not for the horribly oppressive Obama policies. These rich are just hiding their money - putting it away for future generations. It's an inherent flaw in unfettered capitalism; as a small % of the population acquires more of the overall population's wealth, that wealth will become sequestered from that population, for a period of generations if not more. And it will continue to grow in that sequestered state, as those rich gather even more money, leaving even less for the remaining 99.8% of the population.

And the poor are doing what else with it? You do know about retirement funds, college funds, 401k, banks, planning for the future, insurance. The rest of us are doing exactly the same thing, in smaller amounts. Why should they give it up or spend it? It's there money it's a concept of ownership, it's called, mine. You guys have decided that they should throw away their money becauseee the economy is bad? It's about as logical a jump as the one that brought us jewish conspiracy theories.

 

[PostmodernProphet]

You're letting your hack shine through. As of now, proper taxes have not been paid. That's why they call them "tax havens."

all taxes currently levied by law have been paid....no taxes will be due on this money until 1) the laws are changed, or 2) it is brought into the US.....so they are tax havens AND all proper taxes have been paid......

 

[PostmodernProphet]

You're showing your ignorance, again.

no, I'm merely instructing you on tax law so you will not remain ignorant.....

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

No, of course they're not going to invest, as long as the U.S. has crushing debt and the dollar continues to weaken - which will only get worse as the super-rich squirrel away more money.

But again, it is THEIR property, they can squirrel away as much or as little as they please... it's THEIRS!

Seems like fixing the crushing debt problem or taking actions to strengthen the dollar, would be a better solution here.. as opposed to subverting constitutional rights of people to be secure in their right to own property.

And you're assuming that they're all VC's who would be investing all of that money in American business if not for the horribly oppressive Obama policies. These rich are just hiding their money - putting it away for future generations. It's an inherent flaw in unfettered capitalism; as a small % of the population acquires more of the overall population's wealth, that wealth will become sequestered from that population, for a period of generations if not more. And it will continue to grow in that sequestered state, as those rich gather even more money, leaving even less for the remaining 99.8% of the population.

First of all, I have not assumed any such thing, and I haven't blamed oppressive Obama policies. The rich are entitled to do whatever they please with THEIR property, it doesn't belong to YOU!

The "inherent flaw" to capitalism is nothing more than a meme developed by Socialists, and fed to little idiots like you, who think people don't deserve to keep their own property. Wherever capitalism has existed, for all the history of man, there are people who are motivated to make money and people who aren't. That is ALWAYS going to be the case in a free capitalist society. That being the case, it is perfectly normal and natural for the 'wealthy' to gain wealth faster than the 'poor' who are unmotivated. The only way to "fix" this, is to motivate the unmotivated. Unfortunately, giving them more entitlements they don't have to work to earn, and further 'punishing' capitalism, is not the way to go. The unmotivated remain perpetually unmotivated.

 

[PostmodernProphet]

No one has really even talked about the fact that the $21 trillion+ that we're talking about is money that has effectively been removed from the economy

of course it has.....and we could return it to the economy simply by declaring a tax amnesty for money currently held overseas......it wouldn't cost us a penny and would cause a $21 trillion dollar boost to the economy.....

 

[Onceler]

But again, it is THEIR property, they can squirrel away as much or as little as they please... it's THEIRS!

Seems like fixing the crushing debt problem or taking actions to strengthen the dollar, would be a better solution here.. as opposed to subverting constitutional rights of people to be secure in their right to own property.



First of all, I have not assumed any such thing, and I haven't blamed oppressive Obama policies. The rich are entitled to do whatever they please with THEIR property, it doesn't belong to YOU!

The "inherent flaw" to capitalism is nothing more than a meme developed by Socialists, and fed to little idiots like you, who think people don't deserve to keep their own property. Wherever capitalism has existed, for all the history of man, there are people who are motivated to make money and people who aren't. That is ALWAYS going to be the case in a free capitalist society. That being the case, it is perfectly normal and natural for the 'wealthy' to gain wealth faster than the 'poor' who are unmotivated. The only way to "fix" this, is to motivate the unmotivated. Unfortunately, giving them more entitlements they don't have to work to earn, and further 'punishing' capitalism, is not the way to go. The unmotivated remain perpetually unmotivated.

I'm all for incentive, and I'm a capitalist. However, the flaw I refer to nags at me, and it should you as well.

What you are failing to do is to extrapolate out the current trend - whether policies you advocate are implemented or not. History has never seen a sequestering of wealth on this scale, not even close. What we are going to end up with is a society where very, very few people have a lot of money - and the rest are basically poor or middle class.

It's not a system that really works for everyone, whether you like it or not. You can say it's a great system, because there is a chance you can get rich - but as time goes by, that chance will look more & more like winning the lottery. As it stands today, only 4% of Americans who start out in the lower classes become wealthy.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I'm all for incentive, and I'm a capitalist. However, the flaw I refer to nags at me, and it should you as well.

But it's not a FLAW, it's a perfectly natural occurrence. Even if we had a way to take all the wealth in the world and equally distribute it between every man, woman, and child on the planet, so that everyone has exactly the same amount of wealth... within a matter of MONTHS there would again be a disparity between the 'rich' and 'poor'. As soon as you divided all the resources, the people who are more motivated to earn money and create wealth, would go to work doing just that, while those who were not motivated, would squander their money and again be in the same boat they are now. This is human nature. If there is ANY 'flaw' it is that some humans are less motivated to be successful, and I don't know how that can ever be fixed.

What you are failing to do is to extrapolate out the current trend - whether policies you advocate are implemented or not. History has never seen a sequestering of wealth on this scale, not even close. What we are going to end up with is a society where very, very few people have a lot of money - and the rest are basically poor or middle class.

Again, why is the wealth being sequestered? It's because capitalists would rather sequester wealth than render it vulnerable to confiscatory policy. I want you to think about this for a moment, just set aside politics for a sec, and think... Do you really believe capitalists want consumers who are broke? All of these companies who are making "record-setting profits" and socking away all this wealth.... do you honestly believe they want their consumers to be broke and poor? Do you think those "rich people" who don't produce jobs, and just sit there hoarding their wealth, actually want to see the economy collapse and the dollar to be devalued to nothing? Can you even find any imaginable reason they would desire this?

So we can agree, most people don't want that to happen. Most people don't want people to be poor or unsuccessful. Those are not reasons to destroy a system that allows people to become as successful as they want. You see, in your jealous envy of "the rich" you don't comprehend your solution is to have the rich be no different than someone living in poverty, in fact, you want a system where we all live in poverty, and no one has wealth or can obtain it. In your mind, such a system might be unfortunate and hard, but it would be 'fair' and everyone would have 'equality' in wealth.

It's not a system that really works for everyone, whether you like it or not. You can say it's a great system, because there is a chance you can get rich - but as time goes by, that chance will look more & more like winning the lottery. As it stands today, only 4% of Americans who start out in the lower classes become wealthy.

Oh but it IS a system that really works for everyone! That's the whole difference between my thinking and yours, and I am so glad you pointed this out! Do you remember 'Stories4U' from a few years back? Awesome conservative poster, who had some of the most amazing ways of making a point with a story... One day, he posted a thread, I can't recall the title, but it was about how ANYONE could make $100k a year legally, with no college, no unusual talent, no particular skill, and only work a few hours a day, several days a week. For days, he had pinheads snarking comments of ridicule going, piquing their curiosity for what seemed forever... then he finally disclosed what this miracle job was... Story-telling! Going around to libraries and civic groups, telling stories of heritage, cultures, whatever you are interested in or connected with... his was Native American history. He made up to $200 an appearance, and did about 500 or so per year. His point was absolutely brilliant, and it's the point I like to make as well... We are fortunate enough to live in a country where anyone CAN become a success. (Note: Not "everyone" is capable of becoming a success, this system doesn't exist in reality.)

And let's talk about your 4% figure... seems to me, that's 4x higher than the 1%... they are doing pretty well at keeping up!

Again... people are all different. We have rich people who are unmotivated to earn wealth and become more wealthy. (I am one.) We also have poor people who are very motivated to earn wealth. Not everyone who is rich is getting richer, not everyone who is poor will remain in poverty. Regardless of what socioeconomic background you come from, or what race you are, or what hardships you face in life, you either HAVE the motivation to succeed or you DON'T. Those who do have this motivation, VERY OFTEN succeed in America. In fact, it's almost a given. This is impossible in the type of system you advocate for. What you desire, is a system that takes from the successful and gives to the unmotivated. The result: The motivated become unmotivated.

 

[Onceler]

But it's not a FLAW, it's a perfectly natural occurrence. Even if we had a way to take all the wealth in the world and equally distribute it between every man, woman, and child on the planet, so that everyone has exactly the same amount of wealth... within a matter of MONTHS there would again be a disparity between the 'rich' and 'poor'. As soon as you divided all the resources, the people who are more motivated to earn money and create wealth, would go to work doing just that, while those who were not motivated, would squander their money and again be in the same boat they are now. This is human nature. If there is ANY 'flaw' it is that some humans are less motivated to be successful, and I don't know how that can ever be fixed.



Again, why is the wealth being sequestered? It's because capitalists would rather sequester wealth than render it vulnerable to confiscatory policy. I want you to think about this for a moment, just set aside politics for a sec, and think... Do you really believe capitalists want consumers who are broke? All of these companies who are making "record-setting profits" and socking away all this wealth.... do you honestly believe they want their consumers to be broke and poor? Do you think those "rich people" who don't produce jobs, and just sit there hoarding their wealth, actually want to see the economy collapse and the dollar to be devalued to nothing? Can you even find any imaginable reason they would desire this?

So we can agree, most people don't want that to happen. Most people don't want people to be poor or unsuccessful. Those are not reasons to destroy a system that allows people to become as successful as they want. You see, in your jealous envy of "the rich" you don't comprehend your solution is to have the rich be no different than someone living in poverty, in fact, you want a system where we all live in poverty, and no one has wealth or can obtain it. In your mind, such a system might be unfortunate and hard, but it would be 'fair' and everyone would have 'equality' in wealth.



Oh but it IS a system that really works for everyone! That's the whole difference between my thinking and yours, and I am so glad you pointed this out! Do you remember 'Stories4U' from a few years back? Awesome conservative poster, who had some of the most amazing ways of making a point with a story... One day, he posted a thread, I can't recall the title, but it was about how ANYONE could make $100k a year legally, with no college, no unusual talent, no particular skill, and only work a few hours a day, several days a week. For days, he had pinheads snarking comments of ridicule going, piquing their curiosity for what seemed forever... then he finally disclosed what this miracle job was... Story-telling! Going around to libraries and civic groups, telling stories of heritage, cultures, whatever you are interested in or connected with... his was Native American history. He made up to $200 an appearance, and did about 500 or so per year. His point was absolutely brilliant, and it's the point I like to make as well... We are fortunate enough to live in a country where anyone CAN become a success. (Note: Not "everyone" is capable of becoming a success, this system doesn't exist in reality.)

And let's talk about your 4% figure... seems to me, that's 4x higher than the 1%... they are doing pretty well at keeping up!

Again... people are all different. We have rich people who are unmotivated to earn wealth and become more wealthy. (I am one.) We also have poor people who are very motivated to earn wealth. Not everyone who is rich is getting richer, not everyone who is poor will remain in poverty. Regardless of what socioeconomic background you come from, or what race you are, or what hardships you face in life, you either HAVE the motivation to succeed or you DON'T. Those who do have this motivation, VERY OFTEN succeed in America. In fact, it's almost a given. This is impossible in the type of system you advocate for. What you desire, is a system that takes from the successful and gives to the unmotivated. The result: The motivated become unmotivated.

You're sort of missing the point entirely, and it's somewhat shocking that you see the 4% figure as some kind of success.

And it is a flaw, because it's not something most people would choose as an outcome given the proverbial veil of ignorance. It's also a flaw because it's affecting our democracy; the rich are influencing legislation & executive decisions to a point where it is not unreasonable to assert that they control or at least partially control our governement. You can call this a socialist meme, but recent history proves this beyond any shadow of a doubt.

So, what we have is a system in place that is controlled by & benefits the very few, and will continue to trend more extremely in that direction. To take it to its ultimate extreme, would you ever choose a system where 1 person controlled 99% of the wealth as well as the decisions of our government, while the rest were in poverty or near-poverty? No one would.

And while some care about consumers having money to spend, many don't; why would they? Their money is safely abroad.

I'm not jealous of them, btw. I do pretty well, and aspire to be among the wealthy myself. I don't begrudge them their wealth. But, I do see the flaw in the system, and where its headed. You, once again, have your head firmly buried in the sand.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

You're sort of missing the point entirely, and it's somewhat shocking that you see the 4% figure as some kind of success.

I'm not missing anything. I made the comment on the 4% number to make a point. I said nothing about it being a "success" and don't know what a "success" looks like, or how you achieve it here. YOU said that 4% of people in poverty become wealthy... well okay, isn't that better than a system that doesn't allow ANY percent to escape poverty? Perhaps that number could be higher? Maybe that starts with not enabling the lazy and unmotivated by feeding them socialist lines of shit about how they deserve gains from the efforts of others? Maybe we improve that number by encouragement and reward for succeeding? Obviously, what we are currently doing isn't working.

And it is a flaw, because it's not something most people would choose as an outcome given the proverbial veil of ignorance. It's also a flaw because it's affecting our democracy; the rich are influencing legislation & executive decisions to a point where it is not unreasonable to assert that they control or at least partially control our governement. You can call this a socialist meme, but recent history proves this beyond any shadow of a doubt.

Not just recent history, but all of history, and under any governmental system... those with the most wealth tend to have the most influence. Some people think this isn't a bad idea, since these people generally know how to be successful. Again, you want a system where the Government controls both the wealth and power, and when you get that, you will have ZERO freedom. You can no longer bitch about the Top 1% because the Top 1% will be the government, and they will hunt you down and exterminate you. But the 'system' will see to it that no one has more than anyone else, and that's what you want.

So, what we have is a system in place that is controlled by & benefits the very few, and will continue to trend more extremely in that direction. To take it to its ultimate extreme, would you ever choose a system where 1 person controlled 99% of the wealth as well as the decisions of our government, while the rest were in poverty or near-poverty? No one would.

This is just plain incorrect. The system benefits everyone. Capitalists sell products and services to consumers who demand them. There is a trade off, both the capitalist and the consumer realize a benefit. With capitalism and commerce, the government benefits in the form of taxation. Also, the commerce creates jobs, and a whole bunch of people benefit from those. And ALL of it feeds on itself, the more the 'big greedy corporations' profit, the more tax is generated, the more jobs are created, the more prosperity is realized by others, and they pass this along to others, and others...This is the great thing about our system.

Now, you actually WANT a system that is as your example... The government would control 99% of the wealth, and the people would control 1%. Those who were in political power, or their families, would live like royalty in immaculate opulence, and the rest of us who weren't politicians, would have virtually nothing, and no real means to obtain anything, because we no longer control wealth or political power.

And while some care about consumers having money to spend, many don't; why would they? Their money is safely abroad.

Again, CAPITALISTS who run businesses and corporations, do not want people to be poor or for the economy to tank. It defies all logic.

I'm not jealous of them, btw. I do pretty well, and aspire to be among the wealthy myself. I don't begrudge them their wealth. But, I do see the flaw in the system, and where its headed. You, once again, have your head firmly buried in the sand.

No my head is not in the sand, I just understand the nature of Socialist propaganda, and what you've been fed. If you aspire to be wealthy, why do you support an ideology which frowns upon wealth and success? Do you think we can apply your 'war on the rich' idea to some rich people, but not to you? We can't let people keep their wealth, but we're supposed to allow you to become wealthy? How do you figure that will work? You are trying actively to destroy the system by which you admit you are engaged in using to become wealthy. How mindless and 'head in the sand' is that?

 

[Howey]

I wonder how many financial institutions would collapse from people withdrawing their money from 'taxable' accounts?

What does that have to do with anything? Many, many financial institutions would benefit tremendously with the off-shore accounts moved back here and properly taxed.

The $21 trillion spoken of in the article, is money that has already been taxed as income or capital gains.

Are you really this dense or do you just play stupid? That money has not been taxed. That's why it's where it is. How hard is that to understand, even from your limited intelligence?

It's interesting to hear Dixie argue that crushing debt will cause the collapse of the economy in one breath, and then in the next, defend the idea that the super-rich be able to hide trillions in tax havens.

Don't forget...he also states he's happy losing money on his purported $6 mil too...

Income tax rates are not the same rate as taxes on dividends.



Whatever you want to think, Howie. I haven't lied about anything.

Again.... If I move the money, I forfeit 25% of it then and there. I don't know what Mitt did, and I don't know what you'd do... for me, 25% of my wealth was too much to pay, and I chose to leave the funds where they are. As for taxes on the dividends, as I said, not sure what they are now... doesn't matter to me. If I start getting an annual BILL instead of a CHECK, I might care more, but as for now, the arrangement suits me fine.



LMAO... that gives me so much reassurance... some idiot punk on a message board 'explained' it to me... now I am smart?

Read the comment again, moron... IF they suspended US cap gains tax, I would STILL have to pay the German penalty tax of 25%, if I take my money out. Therefore, I probably wouldn't. But then, I am not a shrewd businessman (as you have noted) and I am not interested in parlaying my fortune into more, I am content to live on it for the rest of my life, and then hand it off to my children.



No, earned income is not dividend income, they are taxed at two different rates... even in Germany.



Most people are not interested in using their money solely for the purpose of creating jobs. Fact of life.



Tax evasion is illegal, if you have any information, you should turn it over to the authorities. Many do use these accounts to avoid higher taxes, but whatever taxes are owed, have been paid already... You can't tax them AGAIN. You also can't go back and claim they were 'under-charged' and then, retroactively charge them more. You can pass a new law for new monies going into new foreign accounts... but then, that will also have consequences.

Howie... here's the deal... I don't give a shit whether you believe me. It doesn't bother me that you think I am lying. If you need to flatter yourself by thinking you have caught me in a lie, or "busted" me, then you go right ahead... you obviously find things like this important in your life, and I don't want to deprive you of that. I've answered your questions and explained enough. My wealth in Germany has nothing to do with anything here,really, so it doesn't matter.

Income tax rates are not the same rate as taxes on dividends.

Yet even you admit the interest on your supposed dividends is income and taxable...

No, earned income is not dividend income, they are taxed at two different rates... even in Germany.

Who said anything about earned income? We're talking about your dividend interest, which is income.

I gave you the link to the actual law that helps you understand this. If you had money in Germany, which you obviously don't, you'd read it.

Until then, have your accountant over there look at the law.

And put me back on ignore, along with those voices in your little head.

 

[CanceledB]

What does that have to do with anything? Many, many financial institutions would benefit tremendously with the off-shore accounts moved back here and properly taxed.



Are you really this dense or do you just play stupid? That money has not been taxed. That's why it's where it is. How hard is that to understand, even from your limited intelligence?



Don't forget...he also states he's happy losing money on his purported $6 mil too...





Yet even you admit the interest on your supposed dividends is income and taxable...





Who said anything about earned income? We're talking about your dividend interest, which is income.

I gave you the link to the actual law that helps you understand this. If you had money in Germany, which you obviously don't, you'd read it.

Until then, have your accountant over there look at the law.

And put me back on ignore, along with those voices in your little head.

My, my. The lie's laid wide open yet still he persists with the charade.

 

[midcan5]

When did the right wing become reverse Robin Hoods? If the nation belongs to the people so should its wealth, no rich dude created money from nothing. Weird how un-American America has become, cheering death and booing soldiers, finding communists everywhere, and defending the indefensible who send money made in America off shore.

http://www.justplainpolitics.com/showthread.php?42569-21-to-32-trillion&p=1043005#post1043005

 

[PostmodernProphet]

Are you really this dense or do you just play stupid? That money has not been taxed. That's why it's where it is.

it has been taxed once in the country where it was earned. Further, much of that $21 trillion may have been transferred to overseas accounts from the US where it has once been taxed. You assume too much when you start drooling over the taxes you could take on the $21 trillion......

We're talking about your dividend interest

???....what is "dividend interest"?.........do you mean dividend income or interest income?.....

 

[PostmodernProphet]

When did the right wing become reverse Robin Hoods?

silly liberals forget that Robin Hood stole from the tax collectors......silly liberals are the Sheriffs of Nottingham and Prince Johns, not the Robin Hoods......