Supreme Court rules juvenile life without parole cruel and unusual

apple0154 said:
Studies have shown that kids who are cruel to animals tend to exhibit other anti-social behavior. If it is known ones child is cruel to animals and the parent does not seek professional help/counselling and the minor then commits a crime later on the parent should be held responsible for not seeking help for their child earlier.
Click to expand...

I can't say I've read or seen anything that says kids who are cruel to animals turn into teenage murders. Seems pretty big brotherish to me to have parents forced to turn in their children to the government or face prison if their kid does something wrong. Why not go further and say if you are a father and are not involved in your son's life and your son commits murder you can be charged?
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
You appear now to be trying to say that the company told him to deliver the paper to you that way.
How do you know the company didn't try their best and the person delivering the paper had social problems and problems with authority figures.

Or maybe you were just always late on your payments and a lousy tipper. :D
Click to expand...

Payment and tips automatically were charged to a credit card.

Maybe the company did try their best. That's their responsibility, not mine.
 
cawacko said:
I can't say I've read or seen anything that says kids who are cruel to animals turn into teenage murders. Seems pretty big brotherish to me to have parents forced to turn in their children to the government or face prison if their kid does something wrong. Why not go further and say if you are a father and are not involved in your son's life and your son commits murder you can be charged?
Click to expand...

They don't necessarily turn into murderers but it's been shown, as adults, they have a higher chance of abusing children.

It's not a point of turning their children into the government. It's getting them help. It's all about taking responsibility.
 
Socrtease said:
In a 5-4 decision, the high court struck down as cruel and unusual punishment the laws in about 28 states that mandated a life term for murderers, including those under age 18.

The justices ruled in the cases of two 14-year old olds who were given life terms for their role in a homicide, but their decision goes further. It applies to all those under 18. It does not automatically free any prisoner, and it does not forbid life terms for young murderers.

Nonetheless, it is an important victory for those who have objected to imposing very long prison terms on very young offenders.

Basically strikes down any law that MANDATES LWOP for Juveniles. Gives Judges and Juries discretion again.
Click to expand...

They should not have discretion to hand down life terms to juveniles.
 
Rana said:
I believe it should be a case by case review, there are some juveniles that need to stay in prison forever.
Click to expand...

It should only be a case by case review in retrospect. No one should have the ability to give out full life sentences at the time of trial, that should be left up to the parole board.
 
apple0154 said:
They don't necessarily turn into murderers but it's been shown, as adults, they have a higher chance of abusing children.

It's not a point of turning their children into the government. It's getting them help. It's all about taking responsibility.
Click to expand...

I think kids beating animals on the low list of issues with children but if it will make you feel better you should turn in this girl for kicking a dog.


 
cawacko said:
I can't say I've read or seen anything that says kids who are cruel to animals turn into teenage murders. Seems pretty big brotherish to me to have parents forced to turn in their children to the government or face prison if their kid does something wrong. Why not go further and say if you are a father and are not involved in your son's life and your son commits murder you can be charged?
Click to expand...

Re: the animal comment, not all kids but correlations have been found linking animal abuse to adult criminal behaviour including murder.

According to a 1997 study done by the Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA) and Northeastern University, animal abusers are five times more likely to commit violent crimes against people and four times more likely to commit property crimes than are individuals without a history of animal abuse.Many studies in psychology, sociology, and criminology during the last 25 years have demonstrated that violent offenders frequently have childhood and adolescent histories of serious and repeated animal cruelty. The FBI has recognized the connection since the 1970s, when its analysis of the lives of serial killers suggested that most had killed or tortured animals as children. Other research has shown consistent patterns of animal cruelty among perpetrators of more common forms of violence, including child abuse, spouse abuse, and elder abuse. In fact, the American Psychiatric Association considers animal cruelty one of the diagnostic criteria of conduct disorder.
If you break it down to its bare essentials:
"Abusing an animal is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend itself."
Now break down a human crime, say rape. If we substitute a few pronouns, it's the SAME THING.
"Rape is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend themselves."
 
christiefan915 said:
Re: the animal comment, not all kids but correlations have been found linking animal abuse to adult criminal behaviour including murder.

According to a 1997 study done by the Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA) and Northeastern University, animal abusers are five times more likely to commit violent crimes against people and four times more likely to commit property crimes than are individuals without a history of animal abuse.Many studies in psychology, sociology, and criminology during the last 25 years have demonstrated that violent offenders frequently have childhood and adolescent histories of serious and repeated animal cruelty. The FBI has recognized the connection since the 1970s, when its analysis of the lives of serial killers suggested that most had killed or tortured animals as children. Other research has shown consistent patterns of animal cruelty among perpetrators of more common forms of violence, including child abuse, spouse abuse, and elder abuse. In fact, the American Psychiatric Association considers animal cruelty one of the diagnostic criteria of conduct disorder.
If you break it down to its bare essentials:
"Abusing an animal is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend itself."
Now break down a human crime, say rape. If we substitute a few pronouns, it's the SAME THING.
"Rape is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend themselves."
Click to expand...

Sometimes it's just a waste of breath to try and explain things to people.
 
apple0154 said:
Sometimes it's just a waste of breath to try and explain things to people.
Click to expand...

The subject of this thread is murder and juvenile punishments. You're going off on kids who beat animals and how parents need to turn them in but it doesn't have any relation to murder. Christie's link mentions serial killers are known to have a history of beating animals but most murders aren't committed by serial killers. The remainder of her link lists crimes people who beat animals as children may commit later in life but it doesn't reference murder.

The waste of time to me is your belief of parents turning in their children to authorities or face possible punishment.
 
cawacko said:
The subject of this thread is murder and juvenile punishments. You're going off on kids who beat animals and how parents need to turn them in but it doesn't have any relation to murder. Christie's link mentions serial killers are known to have a history of beating animals but most murders aren't committed by serial killers. The remainder of her link lists crimes people who beat animals as children may commit later in life but it doesn't reference murder.

The waste of time to me is your belief of parents turning in their children to authorities or face possible punishment.
Click to expand...

Don't you understand the difference between turning in ones child to authorities vs obtaining help for ones child?
 
apple0154 said:
Don't you understand the difference between turning in ones child to authorities vs obtaining help for ones child?
Click to expand...

Yes I do but when you suggest the parent can be found jail time liable for their child's behavior it ceases to be getting that child help and turns into a CYA situation for the parents and thus is essentially turning their kid in.
 
cawacko said:
Yes I do but when you suggest the parent can be found jail time liable for their child's behavior it ceases to be getting that child help and turns into a CYA situation for the parents and thus is essentially turning their kid in.
Click to expand...

The parent should be obliged to seek help for their child. It is their child. It is their responsibility.
 
cawacko said:
I think kids beating animals on the low list of issues with children but if it will make you feel better you should turn in this girl for kicking a dog.


Click to expand...

Actually, it should set off warnings to the parents. Children who show cruelty to animals frequently graduate to people.
 
christiefan915 said:
Re: the animal comment, not all kids but correlations have been found linking animal abuse to adult criminal behaviour including murder.

According to a 1997 study done by the Massachusetts Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA) and Northeastern University, animal abusers are five times more likely to commit violent crimes against people and four times more likely to commit property crimes than are individuals without a history of animal abuse.Many studies in psychology, sociology, and criminology during the last 25 years have demonstrated that violent offenders frequently have childhood and adolescent histories of serious and repeated animal cruelty. The FBI has recognized the connection since the 1970s, when its analysis of the lives of serial killers suggested that most had killed or tortured animals as children. Other research has shown consistent patterns of animal cruelty among perpetrators of more common forms of violence, including child abuse, spouse abuse, and elder abuse. In fact, the American Psychiatric Association considers animal cruelty one of the diagnostic criteria of conduct disorder.
If you break it down to its bare essentials:
"Abusing an animal is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend itself."
Now break down a human crime, say rape. If we substitute a few pronouns, it's the SAME THING.
"Rape is a way for a human to find power/joy/fulfillment through the torture of a victim they know cannot defend themselves."
Click to expand...

I didn't see this and said the same thing, it should definitely be a sign for the parent to seek help!
 
apple0154 said:
The parent should be obliged to seek help for their child. It is their child. It is their responsibility.
Click to expand...

Parents should be obliged to raise their children but many don't. Should we by law force absentee dads to raise their children?
 
cawacko said:
Parents should be obliged to raise their children but many don't. Should we by law force absentee dads to raise their children?
Click to expand...

That's a tricky question. When divorces take place the father is usually assigned a minor roll. Can we blame them for their absenteeism?
 
apple0154 said:
That's a tricky question. When divorces take place the father is usually assigned a minor roll. Can we blame them for their absenteeism?
Click to expand...

I was thinking more in terms of those who father the child out of wedlock and then for the most part play no part in the child's life. So they never married the mother and never parented the child.

With a divorce if the court tells you you can only see your kids every so often then there's not much you can do.
 
WinterBorn said:
The main difficulty I see is that if you convict someone under the age of 18, and keep them locked up for 20 years, you have effectively destroyed their chances at much of a life.

The murderer at 16 is now a 36 year old who has never lived in the real world.
Click to expand...

what choice is there? I mean, it's a horrible scenario.. but take Cristian Fernandez (sorry, board won't let me post a link yet)... his life was a living hell, I acknowledge that..At about 11 or 12, he raped his 1/2 brother on one or more occasions.. and on a different day, he beat and killed his 2 year old brother..up until he committed his 1st rape of a minor, I wish to God someone had stepped in to save his soul.. but after raping one 5 yro and then killing a 2 yro.. he can't ever live in society again.. even tho he is only 12 at the time.

I say this for 2 reasons..

1.. if he gets 20 years.. he'll spend his most formative years in an atmosphere where violence is even more rampant than what he was already exposed to.. he will literally be 'raised' by the very worst our society has to offer..and at the age of 32, he will be released upon the general public.. If he wasn't a sociopath going in, he damn sure will be coming out..

2.. he's already shown an inability to follow basic societal norms.. do not murder.. I can forgive the rape of the 5 yro, ONLY because it had been done to him,repeatedly, over his short,horrible life and it was all he knew..Maybe.. just maybe, he can be redeemed.. but the rape and murder? of two separate family members? I think he's lost any ability he could have had to live a non-violent and productive life..


As liberals we like to think we have the 'compassion' gene in us that screams "NO, you cannot convict a child for LWOP, that's just inhumane".. the problem is, the world isn't as compassionate or as forgiving.. It's an ugly thought.. it's a horrible decision.. and it's even more of gruesome opinion to utter out loud.. but in our 'secret hearts'.. don't we want this kid removed from society forever? Doesn't letting him out in 20 yrs when he's still very young, dramatically increase the chance for him do the same or worse to our family instead of his own?

I don't know.. I can't believe this is my first post.. HA! But I simply don't know what else to do with these kinds of damaged youths..*shrug*
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top