Fellow Christians, what does this passage mean to you?

That is incorrect. Islam fails to treat them equally, Christianity consistently teaches they are equal, have equally important roles, and are viewed equally by God. It is like comparing Jeffery Dahmer to people who partake in Holy Communion... completely different things.

I disagree that all of Christianity teaches that men and women are equal. If you have different roles it is vertually impossable to be equal. You are saying women and men have seperate but equal rolls. If ones roll is to submit to the other, those two are not equal. I do agree that many Christians teach that the two are equal.
 
I disagree that all of Christianity teaches that men and women are equal. If you have different roles it is vertually impossable to be equal. You are saying women and men have seperate but equal rolls. If ones roll is to submit to the other, those two are not equal. I do agree that many Christians teach that the two are equal.

Jarod, I agree with all of this but the bolded part.
 
The Quran expresses two main views on the role of women. It both stresses the equality of women and men before God in terms of their religious duties (i.e. belief in God and his messenger, praying, fasting, paying zakat (charity), making hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca/ Medina)) and places them "under" the care of men (i.e. men are financially responsible for their wives). In one place it states: "Men are the maintainers and protectors of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women)." The Quran explains that men and women are equal in creation and in the afterlife, but not identical. Surah an-Nisa' 4:1 states that men and women are created from a single soul (nafs wahidah). One person does not come before the other, one is not superior to the other, and one is not the derivative of the other. A woman is not created for the purpose of a man. Rather, they are both created for the mutual benefit of each other.[Quran 30:21]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam#cite_note-4
 
I have said that some Christians teach that women are subservient to men.

You said "Christians teach women are subservient." Then, after two days of being schooled, you amended your comments to say "most Christians" teach this.... then, after another day of schooling and pwnage, you amended it to "some Christians" teach this. So it has been a metamorphosis with you, in another few days, you could be a radical bible-thumping Evangelist like Brent, there's really no telling, you change so quickly when challenged.

I have also said that "to submit" to another person is equivelent to "being submissive" to that person.

No, you initially equated "subservience" with a portion of scripture which used the word "submit" in a completely different context, when taken IN context, and WITH the rest of the passage, it is clear the intent is not to say that women are subservient or lesser in value, as you continued to try and claim. After days of pwnage you have retreated to the safety of root semantics, and relying on those understandings to save you. It doesn't change the fact you have been trounced in debate.

I have never denied saying these two things.

I've not denied you said them either, you said even more before, and your tone has changed over the course of this debate. I think maybe you learned something, but you are too proud to admit that here. You couldn't refute the counter arguments presented, you tried and failed to make your point, you abandoned your initial commentary and tried to spin what you originally said and the point you tried to make.


I have been accused of having said that Christians belive women are inferror to men, I never said that. I have been accused of saying that Islam and Chrisitanity treat women the same way. I never said that.

No, you were accused of saying the Christians teach women are subservient to men, because that is what you said. Then you made the direct comparison between Islam and Christianity, and inferred Christians treat women the same as Islam. You keep making incorrect and untrue statements, and when you are challenged, you try to morph your original statement into something more coherent. It's an indicator you need to think things through before you post.

If you claim I said something I never said, I will call you out on it!

And I don't blame you for that, I am pretty much a stickler for not being misquoted. Generally, I will admit that my comment was misunderstood and take responsibility for that, and then I will offer a clarification of what was meant. I never saw you do that, maybe you did and I missed it amid all the name-calling and sophomoric retorts? No one has misquoted you, what you said (in its context) was ignorant of fact, and you were called on it, then you changed what you said and claimed you meant something else, which you clearly didn't. You were apparently misunderstood because you said something stupid, and you should just own up to that and re-clarify what you wanted to say.


This thread has a handy "reply with quote" feature that allows you to post what you are claiming the other person said. Use it when making claims about what someone said.

Yep, I am familiar with board features. This isn't about a direct quote you made, but the point you tried to make and failed to do so.
 
"The birth of a daughter is a loss" (Ecclesiasticus 22:3).

Compared with...

"He who is involved in bringing up daughters, and accords benevolent treatment towards them, they will be protection for him against Hell-Fire" (Bukhari and Muslim).

"Whoever maintains two girls till they attain maturity, he and I will come on the Resurrection Day like this; and he joined his fingers" (Muslim).
 
I don't think they are entirely. A friend of the family was/is a 'brother' working in, amongst other places the southern Philipines. Now working in the UK. I don't think he would have decribed himself as a monk. Isn't a monk a member of an enclosed order? Perhaps I am wrong? Our friend belonged, as I understand it, to a diocese. He had no 'uniform' per se, although I do not doubt he had several bad habits! We used to watch the occasional rugby match together with the obligatory copious amounts of the golden nectar.


Monks live more cloistered lives, are contemplative, make great ales and wine...
 
A very interesting read.

Read it Dixie, you not correct, there is plenty of debate about the treatment of women in ALL of Islam, there are schools of thought that belive women are equal.

http://www.twf.org/Library/WomenICJ.html#witness

There is nothing in this link that shows me Islam treats women as equals to men, in fact, it consistently points out how the two genders are treated, respected, and handled differently, and not just a little different, very radically different. That doesn't prove equality, sorry.
 
You said "Christians teach women are subservient." Then, after two days of being schooled, you amended your comments to say "most Christians" teach this.... then, after another day of schooling and pwnage, you amended it to "some Christians" teach this. So it has been a metamorphosis with you, in another few days, you could be a radical bible-thumping Evangelist like Brent, there's really no telling, you change so quickly when challenged.



No, you initially equated "subservience" with a portion of scripture which used the word "submit" in a completely different context, when taken IN context, and WITH the rest of the passage, it is clear the intent is not to say that women are subservient or lesser in value, as you continued to try and claim. After days of pwnage you have retreated to the safety of root semantics, and relying on those understandings to save you. It doesn't change the fact you have been trounced in debate.



I've not denied you said them either, you said even more before, and your tone has changed over the course of this debate. I think maybe you learned something, but you are too proud to admit that here. You couldn't refute the counter arguments presented, you tried and failed to make your point, you abandoned your initial commentary and tried to spin what you originally said and the point you tried to make.




No, you were accused of saying the Christians teach women are subservient to men, because that is what you said. Then you made the direct comparison between Islam and Christianity, and inferred Christians treat women the same as Islam. You keep making incorrect and untrue statements, and when you are challenged, you try to morph your original statement into something more coherent. It's an indicator you need to think things through before you post.



And I don't blame you for that, I am pretty much a stickler for not being misquoted. Generally, I will admit that my comment was misunderstood and take responsibility for that, and then I will offer a clarification of what was meant. I never saw you do that, maybe you did and I missed it amid all the name-calling and sophomoric retorts? No one has misquoted you, what you said (in its context) was ignorant of fact, and you were called on it, then you changed what you said and claimed you meant something else, which you clearly didn't. You were apparently misunderstood because you said something stupid, and you should just own up to that and re-clarify what you wanted to say.




Yep, I am familiar with board features. This isn't about a direct quote you made, but the point you tried to make and failed to do so.

I did not make that point, if I did, quote it and show the readers... If not dont claim it. I never directly compared Christianity with Islam, other than today with the the above cite and quotes. I have not said they treat women the same, never not once. You completly misunderstand what I have been trying to say. I never said ALL of Christanity teaches women are subservant to men. I have been a member of Two different Chruches that did not teach that. If I did say that I will admit I was wrong.

BTW, Catholics are as Christians as Unitarians.
 
There is nothing in this link that shows me Islam treats women as equals to men, in fact, it consistently points out how the two genders are treated, respected, and handled differently, and not just a little different, very radically different. That doesn't prove equality, sorry.

No way you could have read that in the amount of time you had.

I did not say the article that says Islam treats women as equals to men. I said that there are groups in Islam that belive women are equal to men, and there are teachings in the Koran that support it.
 
Women in today's Israel are not allowed to give evidence in Rabbinical courts. 13 The Rabbis justify why women cannot bear witness by citing Genesis 18:9-16, where it is stated that Sara, Abraham's wife had lied. The Rabbis use this incident as evidence that women are unqualified to bear witness. It should be noted here that this story narrated in Genesis 18:9-16 has been mentioned more than once in the Quran without any hint of any lies by Sara (11:69-74, 51:24-30). In the Christian West, both ecclesiastical and civil law debarred women from giving testimony until late last century. 14
 
I did not make that point, if I did, quote it and show the readers... If not dont claim it. I never directly compared Christianity with Islam, other than today with the the above cite and quotes. I have not said they treat women the same, never not once. You completly misunderstand what I have been trying to say. I never said ALL of Christanity teaches women are subservant to men. I have been a member of Two different Chruches that did not teach that. If I did say that I will admit I was wrong.

BTW, Catholics are as Christians as Unitarians.

Your reaction to the objections that Islam directly subjugates women, was to attack Christianity for doing the same. "I also don't like it when Christians do it also!" ...Ring a bell? You said (originally), "Most Christians believe women are subservent (sic) to man." You later claimed that you didn't say this was the teaching, but the belief. When the illogical failure happened from that, you quickly began saying you believed SOME Christians believed this. You have offered no evidence to support your notions, and people from all walks have weighed in to show you that Christianity doesn't teach, and the Bible doesn't say, that women are supposed to be subjugated by men or subservient, or unequal in the eyes of God.

No way you could have read that in the amount of time you had.

I did not say the article that says Islam treats women as equals to men. I said that there are groups in Islam that belive women are equal to men, and there are teachings in the Koran that support it.

You posted some crap about Bearing Witness in court, and it certainly didn't prove anything pertaining to Islamic religious belief in gender equality. Nothing in the Koran supports it, the Koran and Sharia are consistent in the teaching that women are NOT EQUAL to men! It's like you found where some strange set of circumstances could result in a woman possibly be given 'equal' consideration, and that proves that Islam allows it! You are too profoundly stupid to argue with on this. You keep trying to make these fundamental arguments about something you apparently can't comprehend.


Women in today's Israel are not allowed to give evidence in Rabbinical courts. 13 The Rabbis justify why women cannot bear witness by citing Genesis 18:9-16, where it is stated that Sara, Abraham's wife had lied. The Rabbis use this incident as evidence that women are unqualified to bear witness. It should be noted here that this story narrated in Genesis 18:9-16 has been mentioned more than once in the Quran without any hint of any lies by Sara (11:69-74, 51:24-30). In the Christian West, both ecclesiastical and civil law debarred women from giving testimony until late last century. 14

Again, you are finding instances in JEWISH law, where women are not treated with equality, and attempting to directly compare this with the Islamic teachings. This is bizarre beyond belief, Jughead... you began the thread trying to convince us you didn't attempt to directly compare religions, and here you are doing just that. And what does JEWISH law have to do with Christians and American justice or western civilization for that matter?
 
Unitarians are still a Christian theology. They don't believe in the Holy Trinity, or that Jesus Christ was the living Son of God, but they do respect Jesus as a prophet of God. It is a distinct difference in Christian belief, but it's still a Christian belief.

how can a denial that Jesus is the Christ be a Christian belief?.......if that's true atheism, a denial of God, is also a Christian belief.....
 
Catholics are followers of the Roman Catholic Church, not Jesus Christ. Catholicism is NOT Christianity.

Catholics CAN be Christians, it depends on whether they accept Jesus Christ as the son of God. However, the Catholic religion itself, is NOT Christianity.

lol, that's ridiculous.....
 
I disagree that all of Christianity teaches that men and women are equal. If you have different roles it is vertually impossable to be equal. You are saying women and men have seperate but equal rolls. If ones roll is to submit to the other, those two are not equal. I do agree that many Christians teach that the two are equal.

my roll is apple fritters....
 
how can a denial that Jesus is the Christ be a Christian belief?.......if that's true atheism, a denial of God, is also a Christian belief.....

I don't want to get into a deep theological argument with you on this, because that is precisely why I said earlier, Catholics aren't Christians. There are indeed connections to Christianity in both Catholicism and Unitarianism, and they are considered Christian theologies. Whether that is technically right or wrong has nothing to do with whether Islam treats women in the same regard as Christianity. Let's not derail the thread into what appears to be a difference of interpretation on what does or doesn't constitute true Christianity. ...It's eating your own.
 
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