Dems hold up UB benefits and one wants to filibuster UB benefits

[Cancel 2018. 3]

Ah, yes - the "fear."

There are posters on this board who are about a dozen times as smart as you Yurt; and there are also ones who have paid attention to politics for more than 2-3 years and actually know something.

And anyone who parses like you can, and as you did earlier on the other thread?

I mean, really - how is that a good use of my time?

translation:

i still can't debate yurt on a single issue, so i'll stick to my ad homs

get back to me when you have a real debate, your ad homs and lies are boring

tell you what, pick the issue and i'll debate you one on one....you're not afraid are you

 

[Onceler]

translation:

i still can't debate yurt on a single issue, so i'll stick to my ad homs

get back to me when you have a real debate, your ad homs and lies are boring

tell you what, pick the issue and i'll debate you one on one....you're not afraid are you

What are you talking about with these "ad homs" you keep referring to, and lies?

I am telling the 100% truth. An individual with any sense of shame whatsoever would be exceedingly embarassed about parsing some of the stuff you parse. And I'll tell ya what - that's why "debating" you is such a futile exercise. I don't fear it one iota; but it's tiring listening to you dodge & weave & run frantically from your own words. It leads nowhere.

So here's the issue: what influence did Manifest Destiny have on U.S. policy up to WWI? Ready....go!

 

[PostmodernProphet]

Question for you: why....do....you....use....four....periods....when....one....would....do....just....fine....on....its.....own?

omigorsh I just noticed.....postmodernism is contagious.....

 

[Damocles]

Fuck him. That's just bullshit. And, to the extent that it's true, it's his fault for not actually making the case (1) for a tax plan that doesn't include tax cuts for the rich and at least pressuring the Republicans to back down and (2) for not doing anything to spur economic growth or at least making the case for additional stimulus.

This is why Democrats are pissed. It's not the compromise per se, but how it came about and Obama's leadership failure. Had Obama been making the argument all along and ended up here, instead of sitting on his hands for the past ten months, the response would have been a whole hell of a lot different. "We tried our best, and this is what we got" is a lot easier to swallow than "It's this or nothing."

He should have passed this stuff long ago at the beginning of his term. He had supermajorities and could have passed it then rather than during lame duck sessions of Congress. It wouldn't even have glitched the debate for health care. Dude is a terrible leader, absolutely atrocious. He seems incapable of prioritizing in an effective manner.

 

[Damocles]

I'd love to see the Ds reject this. Seriously. I hope y'all stand firm, filibuster away. (Well, other than the fact that double-dip may not even get close to what would happen I'd love to see it. It really is tongue in cheek there, I'd really love to see the economy come back and my home go up in value in a big way.)

 

[Bonestorm]

He should have passed this stuff long ago at the beginning of his term. He had supermajorities and could have passed it then rather than during lame duck sessions of Congress. It wouldn't even have glitched the debate for health care. Dude is a terrible leader, absolutely atrocious. He seems incapable of prioritizing in an effective manner.

Please, Damo. The guys on your side of the aisle don't think there should have been the first stimulus, don't think unemployment benefits should be extended and don't think there should be any additional stimulus. In fact, they're only agreeing to the stimulus type stuff because they're getting the tax breaks for the wealthy.

While Obama's failure is one of leadership, the Republican failure is one of ideology.

 

[Bonestorm]

I'd love to see the Ds reject this. Seriously. I hope y'all stand firm, filibuster away. (Well, other than the fact that double-dip may not even get close to what would happen I'd love to see it. It really is tongue in cheek there, I'd really love to see the economy come back and my home go up in value in a big way.)

I've yet to see anything more than token opposition from actual Democratic members of Congress. In the Senate, the only non-Republican I've seen threatening to filibuster is Bernie Sanders, an independent. In the House I've seen some displeasure, but hardly enough to bring any deal down.

So I'm not sure who "y'all" are.

 

[Onceler]

I'd love to see the Ds reject this. Seriously. I hope y'all stand firm, filibuster away. (Well, other than the fact that double-dip may not even get close to what would happen I'd love to see it. It really is tongue in cheek there, I'd really love to see the economy come back and my home go up in value in a big way.)

It will end up passing pretty easily, but your usual partisanship is noted.

 

[apple0154]

He should have passed this stuff long ago at the beginning of his term. He had supermajorities and could have passed it then rather than during lame duck sessions of Congress. It wouldn't even have glitched the debate for health care. Dude is a terrible leader, absolutely atrocious. He seems incapable of prioritizing in an effective manner.

As to Obama's leadership abilities tax rates come and go. Health care was a priority and had been for generations. He couldn't take the chance of anything distracting from it.

Two more years of tax cuts for the wealthy is not going to have as severe effect on people as being cut off UI benefits.

We have to remember as more and more people realize the benefits of HCR, as more programs come on line, more people will back it. Then Obama can use that to argue higher tax rates for the wealthy.

Time is on Obama's side. Adding to the deficit due to the tax advantage for the wealthy does not impact ones life the same way as losing UI benefits or higher taxes for the middle class.

An analogy would be a poor individual putting groceries on their credit card. It may take them longer to pay off the balance but it beats not eating today.

 

[Damocles]

As to Obama's leadership abilities tax rates come and go. Health care was a priority and had been for generations. He couldn't take the chance of anything distracting from it.

Two more years of tax cuts for the wealthy is not going to have as severe effect on people as being cut off UI benefits.

We have to remember as more and more people realize the benefits of HCR, as more programs come on line, more people will back it. Then Obama can use that to argue higher tax rates for the wealthy.

Time is on Obama's side. Adding to the deficit due to the tax advantage for the wealthy does not impact ones life the same way as losing UI benefits or higher taxes for the middle class.

An analogy would be a poor individual putting groceries on their credit card. It may take them longer to pay off the balance but it beats not eating today.

Ridiculous. This would have been no distraction, we can do more than one thing at a time. We're good at it. However, the Bush tax rates for only the tax brackets he wanted could have easily been included in the stimulus. However, Obama had no plan and has issues with priorities. He made it come down to the wire and after his majorities lost their seats before he even began making deals.

This would not have been part of the conversation now, if he had even a tiny bit of foresight. The man is an atrocious leader, I'm betting he doesn't even understand why the Ds might be upset that their leaders weren't even brought into the room during the dealing...

 

[Bonestorm]

Ridiculous. This would have been no distraction, we can do more than one thing at a time. We're good at it. However, the Bush tax rates for only the tax brackets he wanted could have easily been included in the stimulus. However, Obama had no plan and has issues with priorities. He made it come down to the wire and after his majorities lost their seats before he even began making deals.

The first stimulus was hard enough to get passed as it was. If you think that it would have stood a snowball's chance in hell if they tacked another $400 billion on to it you need to have your head examined.

This would not have been part of the conversation now, if he had even a tiny bit of foresight. The man is an atrocious leader, I'm betting he doesn't even understand why the Ds might be upset that their leaders weren't even brought into the room during the dealing...

Hilarious.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

where is obama crying that the dems are holding the american people hostage? where are those dems on this site who said the pubs are holding the american people hostage?

the pubs have agreed to extend UB benefits....yet what do we hear all day from dems...its the republicans fault we don't have an extension of UB benefits....look....i don't agree with not letting the wealthy tax cuts expire...but you have to get real....its only for two years

are you dems really going to whine about a two year extension when you get the extension of UB benefits? let it go....compromise necessarily means both sides do not get what they want

Temporary tax cuts is an acceptable compromise if it gets us unemployment benefits as well. We need to get some more money into the economy, and while tax cuts for the rich is far from the most efficient method of doing that, it's at least something. The unemployment benefits are more important.

The final showdown on tax cuts will depend on how well either party does in 2012.

 

[apple0154]

Ridiculous. This would have been no distraction, we can do more than one thing at a time. We're good at it. However, the Bush tax rates for only the tax brackets he wanted could have easily been included in the stimulus. However, Obama had no plan and has issues with priorities. He made it come down to the wire and after his majorities lost their seats before he even began making deals.

This would not have been part of the conversation now, if he had even a tiny bit of foresight. The man is an atrocious leader, I'm betting he doesn't even understand why the Ds might be upset that their leaders weren't even brought into the room during the dealing...

The tax cuts for the wealthy are a pet of the Repubs. There's no way they could have been eliminated along with passing HCR and, if by chance they were both on the table, we might have seen a more weakened HCR bill. What would have been negotiated away?

As Obama has constantly stated it's one thing at a time. Perseverance.

In any case an additional two years is not going to make that big of a difference.

Time for me to run a few errands.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

logically, higher taxes for the wealthy.....

now....what does Obama's economic adviser think will happen if taxes go up on January 1st?...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/12/08/double-dip-recession-possible-tax-deal-obamas-economic-aide-warns/

The end of UB are much more likely to cause a recession than tax cuts to the rich. Larry Summers was talking about the entire package, obviously.

 

[Damocles]

The first stimulus was hard enough to get passed as it was. If you think that it would have stood a snowball's chance in hell if they tacked another $400 billion on to it you need to have your head examined.




Hilarious.

Ridiculous, it would tack nothing at all to the stimulus to simply extend rates already in place for the specific tax brackets. It was stupid to wait until it was down to the wire to get this done, well stupid if you actually wanted to raise taxes on the "rich". Any excuse in a pinch though, Nigel. Just so long as you can make it sorta sound like it makes sense.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

you're right...obama has done very little with the economy, he blew it spending so much time and effort on the h/c bill...

There wasn't much he could do, besides pass another stimulus bill or convince everyone that the first one shoud've been bigger. Republicans are the ones that decided they could score political points by scaremongering on the healthcare bill , and they managed to make it take about 4 months more than it should've taken. This h/c bill was exactly like what Republicans in the past had pushed for, and when pressed even conservative Republicans like Coburn couldn't come up with much besides the fact that we "cut" medicare and expanded medicaid, which were very minor portions of the overall bill.

 

[Damocles]

The end of UB are much more likely to cause a recession than tax cuts to the rich. Larry Summers was talking about the entire package, obviously.

No, they aren't. They are more likely to take jobs with a smaller paycheck if they don't have free money to rely on. This would reset the wage bubble and the jobs numbers would be huge.

 

[Onceler]

Ridiculous, it would tack nothing at all to the stimulus to simply extend rates already in place for the specific tax brackets. It was stupid to wait until it was down to the wire to get this done, well stupid if you actually wanted to raise taxes on the "rich". Any excuse in a pinch though, Nigel. Just so long as you can make it sorta sound like it makes sense.

Huh?

How's your math, Damo?

 

[Damocles]

Huh?

How's your math, Damo?

Keeping rates the same adds nothing at all to anything. If I charge you $1 for a bag of chips today, it doesn't change anything if I charge you $1 for a bag of chips tomorrow.

What I think your boggle is, is the UB portion. I'm not speaking about that. If he had foresight he could have extended the tax rates for the specific groups he wanted long ago, thus taking it off the table now. It costs nothing at all to extend rates.

 

[Onceler]

Keeping rates the same adds nothing at all to anything. If I charge you $1 for a bag of chips today, it doesn't change anything if I charge you $1 for a bag of chips tomorrow.

No; keeping rates the same for an additional period of time has a price tag in terms of legislation.

That's really horrible spin, Damo. The stimulus package would have been over a trillion with what you're suggesting, and would have been presented that way.