Archaeology of the New Testament

[Cypress]

As far as I know, none of the claims involved nonsensical stories about him performing miracles or coming back from the dead aft 3 days. If those claims existed, hopefully all reasonable people would question them.

What evidence points to that?

Yes.

Yes

Yes.

We know one person, Paul, believed that because there's sufficient evidence that we have Paul's writings.

We have no idea if anyone else actually believed they saw him alive after being killed.

I'm satisfied with how this discussion ended.

You acknowledged the historicity of Jesus' life and execution, and you have conceded that his students genuinely believed they saw him after the crucifixion.

At that point it just comes down to whether they were mistaken or deluded about what they believed they saw.

 

[Cypress]

What evidence points to that?

Analysis of the probability Matthew, Mark, Luke, John authored or dictated the canonical gospels.

Gospel	Evidence for authorship by apostle or evangelist	Alternative explanation​	Probability the gospel was written or dictated by the person the gospel is named after​
Gospel of Mark	Mark is identified by Bishop Pappias in late first/early second century as a secretary to the apostle Peter and the author of a gospel. It is improbable Church leaders would randomly name a canonical gospel after a low-ranking and obscure Christian.	Pappias was confused about what he was told by people who knew the disciples of Jesus. Pappias was referring to a different Mark, not the Mark of the canonical gospel.	More probable than not​
Gospel of Luke	Luke is identified by Bishop Iranaeus in mid to late second century as author of the gospel of Luke. It is improbable Church leaders would randomly name a canonical gospel after a low-ranking and obscure Christian.	First surviving attestation for the authorship of Gospel of Luke is about 100 years after it was written, reducing the reliability of this attestation.	As probable as not​
Gospel of Matthew	Matthew is identified by Bishop Pappias in late first/early second century as an author of an Aramaic-version of a gospel.	Even if Matthew wrote an Aramaic-version of a gospel, Greek translators in the late first century or second century could have completely re-worked it.	As probable as not​
Gospel of John	Bishop Iranaeus in mid-second century was told by Polycarp (a disciple of the apostle John) that John authored a gospel. That makes Iranaeus only one person removed from a disciple of Jesus.	Iranaeus could have been confused about what Polycarp told him, or it could have been a different John, not the apostle John, who authored the canonical gospel.	Probable​

 

[ZenMode]

I'm satisfied with how this discussion ended.

You acknowledged the historicity of Jesus' life and execution, and you have conceded that his students genuinely believed they saw him after the crucifixion.

I didn't concede that. I said that whoever wrote the Gospels, who very likely never met any of those near to Jesus, claimed that Jesus followers said they saw Jesus.

Big difference.

At that point it just comes down to whether they were mistaken or deluded about what they believed they saw.

Not mistaken. Making up stories as was normal at the time and in that situation.

 

[Cypress]

I didn't concede that. I said that whoever wrote the Gospels, who very likely never met any of those near to Jesus, claimed that Jesus followers said they saw Jesus.

Post your proof that supports your claim.
I posted my evidence about the authorship of the gospels.

Even the atheist religious scholar Bart Ehrman concedes that Bishop Pappias' attestation that Mark wrote a gospel is serious circumstantial evidence, although it's not proof.

Not mistaken. Making up stories as was normal at the time and in that situation.

Very weak logic. People aren't willing to die to cover up a lie or fabrication they made up.
The evidence that Jesus' followers were willing to die rather than disavow their belief is powerful evidence they didn't conspire to fabricate a fake story while drinking wine in the tavern.

 

[ZenMode]

Analysis of the probability Matthew, Mark, Luke, John authored or dictated the canonical gospels.

Gospel	Evidence for authorship by apostle or evangelist	Alternative explanation​	Probability the gospel was written or dictated by the person the gospel is named after​
Gospel of Mark	Mark is identified by Bishop Pappias in late first/early second century as a secretary to the apostle Peter and the author of a gospel. It is improbable Church leaders would randomly name a canonical gospel after a low-ranking and obscure Christian.	Pappias was confused about what he was told by people who knew the disciples of Jesus. Pappias was referring to a different Mark, not the Mark of the canonical gospel.	More probable than not​
Gospel of Luke	Luke is identified by Bishop Iranaeus in mid to late second century as author of the gospel of Luke. It is improbable Church leaders would randomly name a canonical gospel after a low-ranking and obscure Christian.	First surviving attestation for the authorship of Gospel of Luke is about 100 years after it was written, reducing the reliability of this attestation.	As probable as not​
Gospel of Matthew	Matthew is identified by Bishop Pappias in late first/early second century as an author of an Aramaic-version of a gospel.	Even if Matthew wrote an Aramaic-version of a gospel, Greek translators in the late first century or second century could have completely re-worked it.	As probable as not​
Gospel of John	Bishop Iranaeus in mid-second century was told by Polycarp (a disciple of the apostle John) that John authored a gospel. That makes Iranaeus only one person removed from a disciple of Jesus.	Iranaeus could have been confused about what Polycarp told him, or it could have been a different John, not the apostle John, who authored the canonical gospel.	Probable​

The Gospels were originally written in Greek. That is widely acknowledged as being true. The people closest to Jesus, like the disciples, were day laborers in the rural town of Galilee, which means they spoke Aramaic. Given their social status, it is HIGHLY unlikely that they knew how to read or write in their bative language and basically impossible that they would have learned to read/write, at at a high level, in Greek.

As someone who regularly reference Bart Ehrman, I'm surprised you are taking the position you are taking.

 

[Cypress]

The Gospels were originally written in Greek. That is widely acknowledged as being true. The people closest to Jesus, like the disciples, were day laborers in the rural town of Galilee, which means they spoke Aramaic.

Wow, such a low level of knowledge.
Luke was a gentile doctor. Mark was a secretary to Peter. Paul was an educated Pharisee. Matthew operated a customs house for the Romans. There is no reason to think they weren't literate in Greek. Greek was the lingua franca of the Mediterranean world. Educated Jews and Jews involved in business and trade would generally be expected to be literate in Greek. Are you aware Palestine and the Levant were ruled by Greeks for centuries?

The type of Greek used in Mark, Matthew, John is not a sophisticated literary Greek. It is a simple Koine Greek. We're not talking about high-end literary artists here.

Luke the doctor and Paul the Pharisee were educated enough to have a more sophisticated Greek literary style.

It would also be a simple matter to dictate a gospel or letter to someone who could write Greek. Paul likely dictated some of his letters to an assistant.

Given their social status, it is HIGHLY unlikely that they knew how to read or write in their bative language and basically impossible that they would have learned to read/write, at at a high level, in Greek.

You're showing a low level of knowledge. Again, Luke, Mark, Paul were not peasants from Galilee.

As someone who regularly reference Bart Ehrman, I'm surprised you are taking the position you are taking.

Bart Ehrman is a serious scholar who doesn't cover up or ignore evidence when it is inconvenient to militant atheists.

I've read more Ehrman probably than anyone on this board. Anyone who is interested in looking for the truth reads multiple perspectives. They don't just listen to atheist podcasts or to Bible thumpers.

 

[ZenMode]

Wow, such a low level of knowledge.
Luke was a gentile doctor. Mark was a secretary to Peter. Paul was an educated Pharisee. Matthew operated a customs house for the Romans. There is no reason to think they weren't literate in Greek. Greek was the lingua franca of the Mediterranean world. Educated Jews and Jews involved in business and trade would generally be expected to be literate in Greek. Are you aware Palestine and the Levant were ruled by Greeks for centuries?

The type of Greek used in Mark, Matthew, John is not a sophisticated literary Greek. It is a simple Koine Greek. We're not talking about high-end literary artists here.

Luke the doctor and Paul the Pharisee were educated enough to have a more sophisticated Greek literary style.

It would also be a simple matter to dictate a gospel or letter to someone who could write Greek. Paul likely dictated some of his letters to an assistant.


You're showing a low level of knowledge. Again, Luke, Mark, Paul were not peasants from Galilee.

Bart Ehrman is a serious scholar who doesn't cover up or ignore evidence when it is inconvenient to militant atheists.

I've read more Ehrman probably than anyone on this board. Anyone who is interested in looking for the truth reads multiple perspectives. They don't just listen to atheist podcasts or to Bible thumpers.

I think you misread what I was saying. I'm not necessarily saying that the writers of the Gospels didn't read/write Greek. They clearly did. I'm saying that the writers were not people close to Jesus. The people close to Jesus a) were very likely not educated in reading/writing their native language much less a second language and b) lived in/near Galilee... not Syria, which is where Luke lived. Luke was allegedly close to Paul. Paul never even met Jesus.

Luke's writings were based on stories of stories of stories of stories of stories of stories of stories and it's already widely believed that the stories written in the gospels were modified from actual events to create various narratives.

 

[Ichabod Stain]

Wow, such a low level of knowledge.
Luke was a gentile doctor. Mark was a secretary to Peter. Paul was an educated Pharisee. Matthew operated a customs house for the Romans. There is no reason to think they weren't literate in Greek. Greek was the lingua franca of the Mediterranean world. Educated Jews and Jews involved in business and trade would generally be expected to be literate in Greek. Are you aware Palestine and the Levant were ruled by Greeks for centuries?

The type of Greek used in Mark, Matthew, John is not a sophisticated literary Greek. It is a simple Koine Greek. We're not talking about high-end literary artists here.

Luke the doctor and Paul the Pharisee were educated enough to have a more sophisticated Greek literary style.

It would also be a simple matter to dictate a gospel or letter to someone who could write Greek. Paul likely dictated some of his letters to an assistant.


You're showing a low level of knowledge. Again, Luke, Mark, Paul were not peasants from Galilee.

Bart Ehrman is a serious scholar who doesn't cover up or ignore evidence when it is inconvenient to militant atheists.

I've read more Ehrman probably than anyone on this board. Anyone who is interested in looking for the truth reads multiple perspectives. They don't just listen to atheist podcasts or to Bible thumpers.

they spoke Aramaic.