Fellow Christians, what does this passage mean to you?

[Phantasmal]

However, he did not give them the title of Father. That one was set aside for the Deity.

No, but I never thought of a God replacement when I referred to my priest as "Father", but now your have piqued my interest as to how that tradition started. Believe me, I never thought any of my parish priests were God, and in fact thought a few did not give an example of the loving God or Jesus.

 

[Lowaicue]

The only thing I would contest is weak mind. There have been too many great minds that believe in something greater than the human experience, but otherwise, I agree with the rest of your statement.

I admit that the phrase was uncalled for. However how else does one describe those who refuse to accept logic and knowledge?
I have read of the American obsession with 'new' ways of demonstrating their faith, but seldom have I seen such wilful ignorance as I have seen here. I refuse to believe that these people are representative of America, the country that put a man on the moon, that has done as much for the advancement of science as anyone in the world.
I guess that forums like this tend to attract a certain kind of person... er...no, no, I am not attracted to this...no...no... I'm not Honestly!

 

[Lowaicue]

Actually, it is the atheists AND the religious that tend to think they have the answers. None of us know for sure, hence the FAITH component of every religion (including Atheism). The only group that doesn't pretend to KNOW for a 'fact' (like poor Ditzie claims) are agnostics.

I wont say you are entirely wrong but some, if not all, of your correctness is in doubt.
Atheists have the answers about theism. They do not know everything about everything. You are assuming my comments to concern faith, that is wrong. Faith is, too often, a 'la-la-la fingers in the ears' view of the world and its wonders. It is easy, doesn't require deep thought and has lots of smart arse put downs and quotes the faithfull can drag out when challenged and then go back to their darkness beneath their particular rock. None of those sound bites are their own, they simply parrot what they have been told. Just read this thread. Not one sentence, hardly, that has not been trotted out before from behind some lectern or in some Mad Ave TV show.
These are the same people who believe everything they hear on fox news and nothing they here from better qualified news sources, who believe that if it is American it is right, if it stems from anywhere else it is wrong. Small, locked shut minds used only to glorify their puppeteers.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I admit that the phrase was uncalled for. However how else does one describe those who refuse to accept logic and knowledge?

People who reject spiritual belief and proclaim there is no God, are the ones refusing to accept logic and knowledge. I have already pointed out, man's intrinsic and inherent attribute of worship. One of the most fundamental parts of Darwinism, says that this attribute would not exist in man if the species didn't need it, spiritual belief would have 'evolved' out of man a long time ago, if that were the case. So we have to conclude human spirituality is something the species needs to survive and thrive. It's hard to argue that something the species relies on, doesn't really exist. Logic and knowledge indicate there is something to it, and rejects the notion there is not.

 

[Lowaicue]

People who reject spiritual belief and proclaim there is no God, are the ones refusing to accept logic and knowledge. I have already pointed out, man's intrinsic and inherent attribute of worship. One of the most fundamental parts of Darwinism, says that this attribute would not exist in man if the species didn't need it, spiritual belief would have 'evolved' out of man a long time ago, if that were the case. So we have to conclude human spirituality is something the species needs to survive and thrive. It's hard to argue that something the species relies on, doesn't really exist. Logic and knowledge indicate there is something to it, and rejects the notion there is not.

I need the love of my children as do you. Lack of it doesn't necessarily prove that our species would disappear.
If you wish to believe that stuff please be my guest. I have always said that, those too lazy or too busy to take an interest in the things we know are fully entitled to their opinions.
Taking the universe for what it is in its simplest terms puts the onus on the 'goddists' to prove their case. Their leaders have been avoiding the main issue of proof for millenia. So, you prove it, I'll take a look, but please, nothing you have said thus far comes even close to proof.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I need the love of my children as do you. Lack of it doesn't necessarily prove that our species would disappear.
If you wish to believe that stuff please be my guest. I have always said that, those too lazy or too busy to take an interest in the things we know are fully entitled to their opinions.
Taking the universe for what it is in its simplest terms puts the onus on the 'goddists' to prove their case. Their leaders have been avoiding the main issue of proof for millenia. So, you prove it, I'll take a look, but please, nothing you have said thus far comes even close to proof.

Again, we only need to look at science objectively, without a bias... you aren't willing to do that. Neanderthals are the closest ancestors to humans that we are aware of, and archaeological studies of their remains show no signs they worshiped or had spiritual beliefs, they didn't seem to engage in rituals associated with spiritual belief. We know they existed on the planet at the same time as homo sapiens, but the species became extinct while homo sapiens thrived. Now of course, this doesn't prove that lack of spirituality was responsible for their extinction, but it has to be considered, since it's one of the only major distinctions between the species. We don't have evidence that something catastrophic happened, homo sapiens would have been effected as well, so something has to explain why Neanderthal became extinct and homo sapiens thrived.

We know from studies in Africa, as well as Australia, earliest civilizations of homo sapiens, practiced spiritual rituals and customs. They buried their dead with elaborate ceremonies using elements which can only be associated with spiritual belief. Throughout history of man, armies have been laid to waste in the name of stamping out religious spiritual ideology, and it still remains in mankind. Millions have laid down their lives in the name of their God, without hesitation, without regret... and millions more take their place as they become martyrs, the human spiritualism prevails and endures, as strong in man as it has ever been. Even Darwin would have to conclude, there is something to this, it's not 'fake' or 'phony' or unimportant. Human spirituality is indeed, a vital and fundamental part of humanity.

 

[Lowaicue]

Again, we only need to look at science objectively, without a bias... you aren't willing to do that. Neanderthals are the closest ancestors to humans that we are aware of, and archaeological studies of their remains show no signs they worshiped or had spiritual beliefs, they didn't seem to engage in rituals associated with spiritual belief. We know they existed on the planet at the same time as homo sapiens, but the species became extinct while homo sapiens thrived. Now of course, this doesn't prove that lack of spirituality was responsible for their extinction, but it has to be considered, since it's one of the only major distinctions between the species. We don't have evidence that something catastrophic happened, homo sapiens would have been effected as well, so something has to explain why Neanderthal became extinct and homo sapiens thrived.

We know from studies in Africa, as well as Australia, earliest civilizations of homo sapiens, practiced spiritual rituals and customs. They buried their dead with elaborate ceremonies using elements which can only be associated with spiritual belief. Throughout history of man, armies have been laid to waste in the name of stamping out religious spiritual ideology, and it still remains in mankind. Millions have laid down their lives in the name of their God, without hesitation, without regret... and millions more take their place as they become martyrs, the human spiritualism prevails and endures, as strong in man as it has ever been. Even Darwin would have to conclude, there is something to this, it's not 'fake' or 'phony' or unimportant. Human spirituality is indeed, a vital and fundamental part of humanity.

You are adding two and two and making five. There is evidence (I have told you before) that Neanderthals, or some of them, DID practice burial rituals. I have not said that spiritualism is phoney, in the way you describe it. But it is far from necessary. Greek mythology served the same purpose, are you suggesting we all accept half man and half beast beings as being fundemental to civilisation. Egyptian stories, Chinese stories all serve a similar purpose. That being to educate and pass knowledge down through the generations. Many people still see the need to do this. many people do not. Most of those who do are not capable or do not wish to practice the intelligent thought of the inquisitive mind.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

You are adding two and two and making five. There is evidence (I have told you before) that Neanderthals, or some of them, DID practice burial rituals.

Not ceremonial rituals, there is no evidence of it. They did bury their dead, lots of animals instinctually dispose of the deceased.

I have not said that spiritualism is phoney, in the way you describe it. But it is far from necessary.

To the contrary, according to Darwin's Theory, it has to be necessary, else it would not persist in the species.

Greek mythology served the same purpose, are you suggesting we all accept half man and half beast beings as being fundemental to civilisation.

I'm not suggesting anyone accept any belief, I am having a discussion about human spiritual belief and how it is fundamental to humanity and human existence. Humans have developed all kinds of ways to worship icons of the supernatural, for all of mankind's history they've done this, repeatedly... through the ages... since the very first indications of man on Earth. That means it's fairly fundamental, don't you think?

Egyptian stories, Chinese stories all serve a similar purpose. That being to educate and pass knowledge down through the generations. Many people still see the need to do this. many people do not. Most of those who do are not capable or do not wish to practice the intelligent thought of the inquisitive mind.

Again... tens of thousands of years... through wars... through persecutions... mass genocides... STILL... mankind has this intractable desire to worship something greater than self. A rational and thinking scientific mind must conclude there is a reason for this... it is an attribute of humanity that can't be discounted as unimportant or insignificant, it defies any logic and reason to do so. Unless you NEED to do so, in order to make your personal ideology work.

 

[Lowaicue]

Not ceremonial rituals, there is no evidence of it. They did bury their dead, lots of animals instinctually dispose of the deceased.

The position and direction of the skeletons give as much evidence of a spiritual burial as with those of homo sapiens. Not my invention but proven archeological and recorded fact.

To the contrary, according to Darwin's Theory, it has to be necessary, else it would not persist in the species.

It may well have been necessary to explain the unknown. No problem. You are still confused by the concept of cause and effect.



I'm not suggesting anyone accept any belief, I am having a discussion about human spiritual belief and how it is fundamental to humanity and human existence. Humans have developed all kinds of ways to worship icons of the supernatural, for all of mankind's history they've done this, repeatedly... through the ages... since the very first indications of man on Earth. That means it's fairly fundamental, don't you think?

Fundemental meaning important, not fundemental meaning necessary. Religious leaders, snake oils salesmen and politicians have relied on the ambiguity of language for generations. You are falling into that trap.

Again... tens of thousands of years... through wars... through persecutions... mass genocides... STILL... mankind has this intractable desire to worship something greater than self. A rational and thinking scientific mind must conclude there is a reason for this... it is an attribute of humanity that can't be discounted as unimportant or insignificant, it defies any logic and reason to do so. Unless you NEED to do so, in order to make your personal ideology work.

Of course there is reason, of course it is significant but it does not defy logic nor does it prove or evidence anything. Look I really dont want to argue this point, Dixie. And I certainly do not wish to destroy your own beliefs, so once again, I have stated the facts, if you prefer your own story then be happy with that.

 

[Minister of Truth]

He's confusing "born again" with "Christian" in totality. Many Christians do not believe that most Catholics are "saved" because they haven't psychically informed God that they were going to take Jesus into their heart. This is according to John Chapter 3, where Jesus spoke to Nicodemus telling him that to get into the Kingdom of Heaven he must be "born again" (of the spirit).

The whole Psychically informing God thing comes from Romans, Chapter 10...



The psychic connection is the part where you are proving you "believe in your heart"...

Of course, since all Catholics are baptized, and since Christian baptism is of "fire and spirit," and not just water... That makes us Christian, but good luck telling them that.

 

[Minister of Truth]

The difference is that Christian's reject any intercessor other then Christ in their confessions. They may seek elders or others in the church to help them stay accountable to an area they are weak in- but they reject the notion that anyone but Christ can or is able to intercede on their behalf- it is at the crux of the Reformation.

So they reject John 20:20, in otherwords. Another win for Protestantism...

 

[christiefan915]

Of course, since all Catholics are baptized, and since Christian baptism is of "fire and spirit," and not just water... That makes us Christian, but good luck telling them that.

Their thing is that we were baptized as infants so we didn't have the knowledge and free will to make the decision.

 

[icedancer2theend]

So they reject John 20:20, in otherwords. Another win for Protestantism...

You make no sense. Protestants reject no such thing.

 

[icedancer2theend]

Of course, since all Catholics are baptized, and since Christian baptism is of "fire and spirit," and not just water... That makes us Christian, but good luck telling them that.

Lutherans'; Methodists'; Episcopalians' and Presbyterians' also practice infant baptism.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

The position and direction of the skeletons give as much evidence of a spiritual burial as with those of homo sapiens. Not my invention but proven archeological and recorded fact.

Not really, there is a distinct difference in the burial rituals found in ancient homo sapien sites and those of Neanderthals. The use of red ocher is the most revealing. This signifies there was a ceremonial ritual, not just a burial, and this denotes spiritual belief. There is no evidence Neanderthals practiced spiritual belief.

It may well have been necessary to explain the unknown. No problem. You are still confused by the concept of cause and effect.

If that were the case, spirituality and religion would have begun to decline precipitously, with the advent of science. At this point, with modern science, those who held on to some unnecessary 'pacifier' would be a relatively small percentage of the species... but that's not the case. There are more practicing spiritual humans on the planet now, than any time in human history.

Fundemental meaning important, not fundemental meaning necessary. Religious leaders, snake oils salesmen and politicians have relied on the ambiguity of language for generations. You are falling into that trap.

Fundamental means important AND necessary. You can't parse it to fit your needs. I'm not here to defend religious leaders, so please don't try to construct such a straw man. We are debating human spirituality, not religion.

Of course there is reason, of course it is significant but it does not defy logic nor does it prove or evidence anything. Look I really dont want to argue this point, Dixie. And I certainly do not wish to destroy your own beliefs, so once again, I have stated the facts, if you prefer your own story then be happy with that.

Well I never said it "proved" anything, but I think we have to admit it is evidence of something. I don't know what "facts" you think you've posted, mostly you are throwing up arguments which are devoid of logic and common sense. If you don't want to argue this, I don't blame you, it's a little uncomfortable to argue from the side of illogical reasoning, I certainly understand.

 

[Minister of Truth]

You make no sense. Protestants reject no such thing.

You said they reject confession. They must reject that verse.