Was Hiroshima an act of terrorism?

[moon]

There were already implosion assemblies waiting on Tinian. All they needed were fissile cores to put in them.

The next fissile core was on its way out the door at Los Alamos on August 11 (for a planned bombing date of August 17-18) when they held back the shipment to give Japan some breathing room since they had finally started talking surrender. It made it as far as the Los Alamos parking lot before being recalled.

You're just another mendacious establishment ghoul.

 

[cancel2 2022]

Nope. The behind the scenes deal was already nearly finished. Japan was done, as Ike and Leahy said. But what do they know compared to you? We could have leveled those cities like we did the others and not used nukes. We owned the skies. We firebombed many. many cities and in some cities, killed more than the Abomb could have. It was a show of strength and a scientific experiment. They spent over a trillion dollars making those 2 bombs and were not going to skip seeing what they could do.
I know you want to believe that stuff, but it just isn't true. It is what the victor says when it is over. They write the history. That is why we say we did not torture, but we did. We say we did not gun down unarmed citizens and children, but we did.

You spoilt a good post, for once, by saying they spent over a trillion dollars on the Manhattan Project, the figures were closer to two billion dollars. Why do have to exaggerate so much?

Eventually, the Manhattan Project employed more than 130,000 people and cost nearly US$ 2 billion (equivalent to US$ 23 billion in 2007 dollars). It created multiple secret production and research sites, the three primary ones being: the plutonium-production facility at what is now the Hanford Site (Washington state); uranium-enrichment facilities at Oak Ridge, Tennessee; and the weapons research and design laboratory, now known as Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico. Project research took place at over 30 different sites across the United States, Canada and the United Kingdom. The Manhattan Project maintained control over United States’ weapons production until formation of the US Atomic Energy Commission in January 1947.

Josef Rotblat left the Manhattan Project after Nazi-Germany surrendered in May 1945.

One noteworthy “defection” from the Manhattan Project was that of Polish-born scientist, Josef Rotblat, who protested the completion of the Manhattan project after it had become clear that a nuclear programme did not exist in Nazi-Germany. He left for moral reasons after Germany surrendered in May 1945. He was one of the nine scientists to sign the Russell-Einstein Manifesto. He also helped to found, and later became President of, the annual Pugwash Conferences on Science and World Affairs and received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1995.

https://www.ctbto.org/nuclear-testing/history-of-nuclear-testing/manhattan-project/

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Libelous loser. Go nuke someone.

It's not libel when it's true. You're all over this forum supporting the Palestinian terrorists and seeking the destruction of Israel. You support blowing up buses and markets full of innocent people.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Nuking Russia in 1945 would have been stupid, and would forever have tarnished the image of the United States as a reliable ally.

Whatever crimes Stalin perpetrated on his people, the USSR lived up to its obligations as our ally against the Axis powers. They promised to join us in attacking Japan as soon as Nazi Germany was defeated, and they not only lived up to their end of the bargain, but they destroyed the largest remaining Japanese Army formation, the Kwangtung Army.

I do not think a Soviet occupation of Hokkaido would have been a good outcome. And for that reason we have to admire the vision of FDR and Truman for a military occupation of Japan and the dismantling of their military dictatorship and warrior ethos.

Disagreed about nuking the USSR, but it certainly would have meant war. Let's not forget that Stalin committed genocide by killing tens of millions of his own people. Not just purges, assassinations but also through labor camps or starvation. He was equal to Hitler. He was even aligned with Hitler until Hitler betrayed him. Ask the Finns and Ukrainians how much they like Russia.

As for the Soviet support against Japan, it was minimal; they made a land grab then stopped. Do you really believe they would have put as much into invading Japan as they did in stopping the Germans? Me neither.

https://news.stanford.edu/2010/09/23/naimark-stalin-genocide-092310/
the Soviet elimination of a social class, the kulaks (who were higher-income farmers), and the subsequent killer famine among all Ukrainian peasants – as well as the notorious 1937 order No. 00447 that called for the mass execution and exile of “socially harmful elements” as “enemies of the people” – were, in fact, genocide.

“I make the argument that these matters shouldn’t be seen as discrete episodes, but seen together,” said Naimark, the Robert and Florence McDonnell Professor of Eastern European Studies and a respected authority on the Soviet regime. “It’s a horrific case of genocide – the purposeful elimination of all or part of a social group, a political group.”

Stalin had nearly a million of his own citizens executed, beginning in the 1930s. Millions more fell victim to forced labor, deportation, famine, massacres, and detention and interrogation by Stalin’s henchmen.


https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/02/05/who-killed-more-hitler-stalin-or-mao/
Snyder estimates that Hitler was responsible for between 11 million and 12 million noncombatant deaths, while Stalin was responsible for at least 6 million, and as many as 9 million if “foreseeable” deaths caused by deportation, starvation, and incarceration in concentration camps are included.

But the Hitler and Stalin numbers invite questions that Mao’s higher ones do not. Should we let Hitler, especially, off the hook for combatant deaths in World War II? It’s probably fair to say that without Hitler, there wouldn’t have been a European war.

If one includes the combatant deaths, and the deaths due to war-related famine and disease, the numbers shoot up astronomically. The Soviet Union suffered upward of 8 million combatant deaths and many more due to famine and disease—perhaps about 20 million.

 

[Cypress]

Disagreed about nuking the USSR, but it certainly would have meant war. Let's not forget that Stalin committed genocide by killing tens of millions of his own people. Not just purges, assassinations but also through labor camps or starvation. He was equal to Hitler. He was even aligned with Hitler until Hitler betrayed him. Ask the Finns and Ukrainians how much they like Russia.

As for the Soviet support against Japan, it was minimal; they made a land grab then stopped. Do you really believe they would have put as much into invading Japan as they did in stopping the Germans? Me neither.

https://news.stanford.edu/2010/09/23/naimark-stalin-genocide-092310/
the Soviet elimination of a social class, the kulaks (who were higher-income farmers), and the subsequent killer famine among all Ukrainian peasants – as well as the notorious 1937 order No. 00447 that called for the mass execution and exile of “socially harmful elements” as “enemies of the people” – were, in fact, genocide.

“I make the argument that these matters shouldn’t be seen as discrete episodes, but seen together,” said Naimark, the Robert and Florence McDonnell Professor of Eastern European Studies and a respected authority on the Soviet regime. “It’s a horrific case of genocide – the purposeful elimination of all or part of a social group, a political group.”

Stalin had nearly a million of his own citizens executed, beginning in the 1930s. Millions more fell victim to forced labor, deportation, famine, massacres, and detention and interrogation by Stalin’s henchmen.


https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/02/05/who-killed-more-hitler-stalin-or-mao/
Snyder estimates that Hitler was responsible for between 11 million and 12 million noncombatant deaths, while Stalin was responsible for at least 6 million, and as many as 9 million if “foreseeable” deaths caused by deportation, starvation, and incarceration in concentration camps are included.

But the Hitler and Stalin numbers invite questions that Mao’s higher ones do not. Should we let Hitler, especially, off the hook for combatant deaths in World War II? It’s probably fair to say that without Hitler, there wouldn’t have been a European war.

If one includes the combatant deaths, and the deaths due to war-related famine and disease, the numbers shoot up astronomically. The Soviet Union suffered upward of 8 million combatant deaths and many more due to famine and disease—perhaps about 20 million.

Roosevelt asked Stalin to attack Japan after Hitler was defeated, in exchange for conceding some sphere of influence to USSR in northeast Asia.

Some experts think the entry of Soviet Russia into the war on imperial Japan, and the overwhelming threat of the massive Red Army, did more to coerce Japanese surrender than the atomic bombs did

There was no existential reason for USSR to help us wage war on Japan, a state of neutrality had existed between USSR and Japan until August 1945.

But at the personal level, it would have actually been better for my relatives if Roosevelt had not pressured Stalin to join the war on Japan. When Soviet troops got to Harbin and Mukden (Shenyang), NKVD rounded up my aunt's husband, several great Uncles, and hundreds of other Russians living in Manchuria and shipped them off to the Gulag.

 

[moon]

It's not libel when it's true. You're all over this forum supporting the Palestinian terrorists and seeking the destruction of Israel. You support blowing up buses and markets full of innocent people.

Resistance isn't terrorism, nuke-head, and you've buckled previously when asked to produce any evidence for me advocating the destruction of Izrael. Once makes you incorrect. Twice makes you a lying asshole.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Resistance isn't terrorism, nuke-head, and you've buckled previously when asked to produce any evidence for me advocating the destruction of Izrael. Once makes you incorrect. Twice makes you a lying asshole.

Oh, that's what you call bombinb a busload of shoppers; "resistance". LOL

The fact you have been reduced to a fool babbling insults is very amusing. How old are you?

 

[Iolo/Penderyn]

Resistance isn't terrorism, nuke-head, and you've buckled previously when asked to produce any evidence for me advocating the destruction of Izrael. Once makes you incorrect. Twice makes you a lying asshole.

There is nothing wrong with advocating the destruction of Nazi 'Israel' any more than there was about advocating the destruction of Nazi South Africa and its replacement with a non-racist democracy. There is no 'terrorism' in Occupied Palestine - just war crimes committed by the occupying imperialist troops, and heroic Resistance.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Roosevelt asked Stalin to attack Japan after Hitler was defeated, in exchange for conceding some sphere of influence to USSR in northeast Asia.

Some experts think the entry of Soviet Russia into the war on imperial Japan, and the overwhelming threat of the massive Red Army, did more to coerce Japanese surrender than the atomic bombs did

There was no existential reason for USSR to help us wage war on Japan, a state of neutrality had existed between USSR and Japan until August 1945.

But at the personal level, it would have actually been better for my relatives if Roosevelt had not pressured Stalin to join the war on Japan. When Soviet troops got to Harbin and Mukden (Shenyang), NKVD rounded up my aunt's husband, several great Uncles, and hundreds of other Russians living in Manchuria and shipped them off to the Gulag.

That's what I read too. Sure, it would be more writing on the wall for the Japanese. How familiar are you with Japanese culture then or now? Have you read any books about the battles with the Japanese, especially how the intensity increased the closer the US got to Honshu? They are very protective of their culture and highly value personal honor. They make the Spartans look like pussies. I strongly doubt they were going to give unconditional surrender.

 

[moon]

Oh, that's what you call bombinb a busload of shoppers; "resistance". LOL

The fact you have been reduced to a fool babbling insults is very amusing. How old are you?

The resistance to Izreali occupation took many forms and involved many individuals . Whatever wrongs the Palestinians did to Izraelis is DWARFED by the wrongs that Izraelis have done to Palestinians.
You're actually a one-eyed libelous asshole and your support for aggression and mass murder is obscene.

 

[moon]

There is nothing wrong with advocating the destruction of Nazi 'Israel' any more than there was about advocating the destruction of Nazi South Africa and its replacement with a non-racist democracy. There is no 'terrorism' in Occupied Palestine - just war crimes committed by the occupying imperialist troops, and heroic Resistance.

I've always been quite clear that Israel is a legal entity according to international law. I've also been clear as crystal that it's neoZionism which must be destroyed- as is the case with all fascist doctrines- including the nuclear fascism which the mendacious asshole advocates here.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Curtis Le May had absolutely no qualms about firebombing Tokyo and killing 100,000 civilians. Yet even be baulked at the use of nuclear weapons

That's incorrect. General Jack D. Ripper on "Dr. Strangelove" was modeled after LeMay.

https://www.atomicheritage.org/profile/curtis-lemay
LeMay is known for designing and implementing the systematic strategic bombing campaign in the Pacific Theater during World War II....New bases became available in mid-1944 as US forces captured the Marianas; within months Tinian Island was home to the world’s largest air base. It was from Tinian that LeMay pioneered his strategy of low-altitude nighttime firebombing raids. The first of these, on March 10, 1945, had more than 300 B-29s drop a variety of incendiary bombs in a massive X pattern over several hours. More than 100,000 people died in the resulting conflagration. LeMay subsequently directed similar raids at every major industrial city in Japan: sixty-three cities and hundreds of thousands of civilians were burned by the war’s end....After the war, LeMay was appointed as a Deputy Chief of Air Staff for Research and Development to investigate the delivery process for the United States’ growing nuclear arsenal. From his position in the Army Air Forces, LeMay directed the first bomb tests at Bikini Atoll in 1946. The very first test was something of a failure; the bomb missed its target, an empty battleship, and exploded underwater with little spectacle or apparent damage. Though criticized by rival Navy commanders, LeMay was impressed by the explosion he saw. It strengthened his conviction that nuclear weapons had the power to destroy entire societies, and that, to be used, there must be an effective delivery method.


General Curtis LeMay quotes:
There are no innocent civilians. It is their government and you are fighting a people, you are not trying to fight an armed force anymore. So it doesn't bother me so much to be killing the so-called innocent bystanders.

Killing Japanese didn't bother me very much at that time... I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal.... Every soldier thinks something of the moral aspects of what he is doing. But all war is immoral and if you let that bother you, you're not a good soldier.

Native annalists may look sadly back from the future on that period when we had the atomic bomb and the Russians didn't. Or when the Russians had aquired (through connivance and treachery of Westerns with warped minds) the atomic bomb - and yet still didn't have any stockpile of the weapons. That was the era when we might have destroyed Russia completely and not even skinned our elbows doing it.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

The resistance to Izreali occupation took many forms and involved many individuals . Whatever wrongs the Palestinians did to Izraelis is DWARFED by the wrongs that Izraelis have done to Palestinians.
You're actually a one-eyed libelous asshole and your support for aggression and mass murder is obscene.

Translation: You are correct, Dutch.

Everyone knows your an antisemitic, Moon. It's not a secret. Your labeling those who oppose you "prosemitic" is one of the biggest clues.

 

[Cypress]

That's what I read too. Sure, it would be more writing on the wall for the Japanese. How familiar are you with Japanese culture then or now? Have you read any books about the battles with the Japanese, especially how the intensity increased the closer the US got to Honshu? They are very protective of their culture and highly value personal honor. They make the Spartans look like pussies. I strongly doubt they were going to give unconditional surrender.

Your point is plausible.

Looking at the facts on the ground, I see no evidence the Japanese were utterly defeated and on the verge of running up the white flag of surrender.

Mere weeks before the attack on Hiroshima, the Japanese fought tenaciously on Okinawa, they fought to the death, they fought to the last man. That does not strike me as a people on the verge of surrendering.

The huge and generally unacknowledged favor Soviet Russia did for us is eliminating the last viable Japanese field army as a threat. Japan had one million soldiers in Manchuria. If they had withdrawn that army to the home ialands, it would have made an American invasion virtually impossible. The Soviets destroyed the Kwangtung Army and captured more than half a million Japanese soldiers.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Your point is plausible.

Looking at the facts on the ground, I see no evidence the Japanese were utterly defeated and on the verge of running up the white flag of surrender.

Mere weeks before the attack on Hiroshima, the Japanese fought tenaciously on Okinawa, they fought to the death, they fought to the last man. That does not strike me as a people on the verge of surrendering.

The huge and generally unacknowledged favor Soviet Russia did for us is eliminating the last viable Japanese field army as a threat. Japan had one million soldiers in Manchuria. If they had withdrawn that army to the home ialands, it would have made an American invasion virtually impossible. The Soviets destroyed the Kwangtung Army and captured more than half a million Japanese soldiers.

I'd have to research what was happening in Manchuria at the time, but given the US damage to Japan's supply lines, they may have been cut off. I won't diminish anything the Soviets did in killing Japanese, but it's not like they were White Knights rushing in to help us. They helped themselves.

 

[Cypress]

I'd have to research what was happening in Manchuria at the time, but given the US damage to Japan's supply lines, they may have been cut off. I won't diminish anything the Soviets did in killing Japanese, but it's not like they were White Knights rushing in to help us. They helped themselves.

Fair enough.

I do have to say it makes no sense to claim empathy for the victims of Stalin's crimes in the USSR, while also making statements that we should have nuked the USSR in 1945.

One contention claims to care about Soviet civilians.

The other statement shows a callous disregard for them.

Whatever citizens of the Soviet Union had to endure under Stalin, they were not asking to be rescued by being vaporized by American nuclear bombs.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Fair enough.

I do have to say it makes no sense to claim empathy for the victims of Stalin's crimes in the USSR, while also making statements that we should have nuked the USSR in 1945.

One contention claims to care about Soviet civilians.

The other statement shows a callous disregard for them.

Whatever citizens of the Soviet Union had to endure under Stalin, they were not asking to be rescued by being vaporized by American nuclear bombs.

Disagreed. It's akin to the argument of firebombing or nuking Japan; it's about what is best for the greater good. Is it better to kill a million Soviets to save the lives of 10 million Soviets? Again, the Trolly Problem.

 

[Cypress]

Disagreed. It's akin to the argument of firebombing or nuking Japan; it's about what is best for the greater good. Is it better to kill a million Soviets to save the lives of 10 million Soviets? Again, the Trolly Problem.

Japan attacked us.

The Soviet Union did not.

I realize you are trolling me by asserting we should have nuked USSR in 1945

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Japan attacked us.

The Soviet Union did not.

I realize you are trolling me by asserting we should have nuked USSR in 1945

The Soviet Union was aligned with Hitler and brutally attacked their neighbors. They continued their brutality even after hostilities ended. Stalin was known to be a brutal dictator and nutjob. Do you really think he wasn't a threat?

Not trolling. I would have supported Patton and LeMay. As it was, it didn't happen and luckily the world survived the Cold War without a nuclear exchange.

 

[moon]

it's about what is best for the greater good. .

Suddenly you're a nuking socialist.
Haw, haw...........................haw.

Give it up, pal. Your promotion of mass murder marks you as a throwback.