Was Hiroshima an act of terrorism?

[Dutch Uncle]

Is that what Hiroshima was?

We have veered off from intellectual honesty in this discussion constantly on this thread.

Talk about what we did.

Perhaps you have. I'm still trying to figure out your stance.

In the middle of a war, it's the responsibility of the leadership to save lives but successfully end the war ASAP. The US did exactly that.

 

[cancel2 2022]

The justification for the A-bombs was that they reduced Japan's ability to resist our invasion.



That is incorrect. The point was to reduce Japan's ability to resist our invasion.

66 Japanese cities were targeted before Hiroshima and Nagasaki. So.if they were so important why weren't they firebombed like Tokyo and many other cities?

 

[BartenderElite]

Perhaps you have. I'm still trying to figure out your stance.

In the middle of a war, it's the responsibility of the leadership to save lives but successfully end the war ASAP. The US did exactly that.

Pretty much every conflict could be ended early by targeting civilians.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

66 Japanese cities were targeted before Hiroshima and Nagasaki. So.if they were so important why weren't they firebombed like Tokyo and many other cities?

Lots of Japanese targets, so little time.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Pretty much every conflict could be ended early by targeting civilians.

Could be but it hasn't. Why do you think it was then and why only Islamic terrorists target civilians now?

BTW, today is the anniversary of Nagasaki. Japan didn't surrender until the 15th but the US was out of bombs but that was classified.

If the Japanese were about to fall anyway, why not surrender on the 7th? The 10th? Why risk a third US bomb by waiting almost a week?

 

[BartenderElite]

Could be but it hasn't. Why do you think it was then and why only Islamic terrorists target civilians now?

BTW, today is the anniversary of Nagasaki. Japan didn't surrender until the 15th but the US was out of bombs.

Islamic terrorists target civilians because they are soulless scum.

I don't want us to be like them.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Islamic terrorists target civilians because they are soulless scum.

I don't want us to be like them.

Moon likes them.

 

[cancel2 2022]

.
Why do idiots say the US were out of bombs? They had another ready to go after Nagasaki and another six, in the pipeline, to be used in September and October!

I still think that the primary motivation in using nuclear weapons, especially the plutonium bomb, was to stop Stalin from invading Hokkaido. The Russians never gave anything back unless forced to, witness Kaliningrad and Eastern Karelia. I don't think the Allies could have allowed that to happen and they'd either confront the Russians or used nuclear weapons on them as well. Of course Truman wasn't to know that Klaus Fuchs had given the Russians the know how on making nuclear bombs anyway as they amply demonstrated in 1947.

 

[Cypress]

Agreed on the leadership, disagreed that it was immoral. No more immoral than the war itself.

You seem to be agreeing that sometimes war is necessary. It would be completely irresponsible to go to war without the intent of winning it. To go to war and not do everything to both be victorious and humane in doing so. Dropping the atomic bomb wasn't a flippant decision. It was a struggle but I think the right decision was made.

Yes, I think the bombing was immoral and inhumane, but plausibly also strategically warranted. It is possible to believe both things at the same time.

Few Americans realize that the Soviet Army, fresh off their destruction of the Japanese Kwangtung Army in Manchuria, had battle plans to invade and occupy the northern Japanese home island of Hokkaido. That is one reason Truman was keen to coerce Japan into immediate surrender and compel them to submit to American military occupation.

There is no question in my mind that the Soviets would have set up a communist client state in a "People's Republic of Hokkaido", and giving the USSR a key strategic foothold in the north Pacific.

 

[Anvil Kasseri]

Japan didn't surrender until the 15th but the US was out of bombs but that was classified.

There were already implosion assemblies waiting on Tinian. All they needed were fissile cores to put in them.

The next fissile core was on its way out the door at Los Alamos on August 11 (for a planned bombing date of August 17-18) when they held back the shipment to give Japan some breathing room since they had finally started talking surrender. It made it as far as the Los Alamos parking lot before being recalled.

 

[Anvil Kasseri]

66 Japanese cities were targeted before Hiroshima and Nagasaki. So.if they were so important why weren't they firebombed like Tokyo and many other cities?

Hiroshima and Kokura Arsenal were deliberately spared from conventional bombing so that the A-bombs would have targets large enough to convey to the Japanese government how powerful they were.

It was a big mistake not to spare Yokohama from conventional bombing as well. It would have been a much better alternate than Nagasaki.

Nagasaki was spared from conventional bombing because it was hard to pinpoint using the radar guidance that was used by the large incendiary raids.

.They had another ready to go after Nagasaki and another six, in the pipeline, to be used in September and October!

They would have kept trying until Kokura Arsenal was destroyed, but then they would have started saving the A-bombs to use all at once to clear away concentrations of Japanese troops in front of our invasion.

I still think that the primary motivation in using nuclear weapons, especially the plutonium bomb, was to stop Stalin from invading Hokkaido. The Russians never gave anything back unless forced to, witness Kaliningrad and Eastern Karelia. I don't think the Allies could have allowed that to happen and they'd either confront the Russians or used nuclear weapons on them as well.

Actually the US government was considering offering the Soviets all of Hokkaido and a portion of Honshu as an enticement for convincing the Soviets to invade Hokkaido at the same time that we invaded Kyushu.

There were also a lot of nervous feelings about how bad an invasion would be even with a bunch of A-bombs clearing the way in front of our troops.

 

[Anvil Kasseri]

Never target civilians.

We didn't target civilians. The A-bombs were dropped on military targets.

Never TARGET civilians.

We didn't. We won't.

Is that what Hiroshima was?

Yes. Hiroshima was Japan's primary military port. There were tens of thousands of soldiers there awaiting deployment to resist our invasion.

Hiroshima was also the military headquarters in charge of repelling our invasion.

 

[Anvil Kasseri]

The point was to see what the abomb would do to a pristine city.

That is incorrect. The point was to make Japan surrender.

Several Japanese cities were not bombed like Tokyo was. They were saved as test targets.

They were saved as targets.

If they wanted to end the manufacturing of Hiroshima, they could have done it much earlier. But they allowed it to keep producing. America had other plans for them.

Hiroshima was not so much a manufacturing center as it was a gigantic military base.

It is true that it was saved as a target, as was Kokura Arsenal. This allowed us to shock Japan's government with the power of the A-bombs and potentially intimidate them into surrender.

We should have saved Yokohama for the A-bombs as well. It would have made a much better alternate than Nagasaki did.

 

[Anvil Kasseri]

It's definitely against international law to target civilians. Maybe it wasn't a law at the time, but WWII did happen after international law became a thing.

We didn't target civilians. The A-bombs were dropped on military targets.

Sure, but as I mentioned earlier, the war was all but won when America dropped the a-bombs.

When the A-bombs were dropped, Japan was still refusing to surrender.

The Allies also did a lot of morally gray things when fighting the Nazis, which maybe one could defend, but there is no defending the terrible things done to Germans after the war was over.

Who did what to the Germans after the war was over?

 

[Dutch Uncle]

Yes, I think the bombing was immoral and inhumane, but plausibly also strategically warranted. It is possible to believe both things at the same time.

Few Americans realize that the Soviet Army, fresh off their destruction of the Japanese Kwangtung Army in Manchuria, had battle plans to invade and occupy the northern Japanese home island of Hokkaido. That is one reason Truman was keen to coerce Japan into immediate surrender and compel them to submit to American military occupation.

There is no question in my mind that the Soviets would have set up a communist client state in a "People's Republic of Hokkaido", and giving the USSR a key strategic foothold in the north Pacific.

The Russians took the low hanging fruit by capturing Sakhalin island and the Kurils...which they still possess.

While the Soviets were thought to be a problem, if they were that big of a problem perhaps Truman should have nuke them while he had the chance. As it was, he passed. There's more to this story than most people here are discussing.

 

[cancel2 2022]

Hiroshima and Kokura Arsenal were deliberately spared from conventional bombing so that the A-bombs would have targets large enough to convey to the Japanese government how powerful they were.

It was a big mistake not to spare Yokohama from conventional bombing as well. It would have been a much better alternate than Nagasaki.

Nagasaki was spared from conventional bombing because it was hard to pinpoint using the radar guidance that was used by the large incendiary raids.




They would have kept trying until Kokura Arsenal was destroyed, but then they would have started saving the A-bombs to use all at once to clear away concentrations of Japanese troops in front of our invasion.




Actually the US government was considering offering the Soviets all of Hokkaido and a portion of Honshu as an enticement for convincing the Soviets to invade Hokkaido at the same time that we invaded Kyushu.

There were also a lot of nervous feelings about how bad an invasion would be even with a bunch of A-bombs clearing the way in front of our troops.

That's lunacy, so you're trying to say that they'd use nuclear bombs to clear beaches, how many US soldiers would have died from irradiation?

 

[Cypress]

The Russians took the low hanging fruit by capturing Sakhalin island and the Kurils...which they still possess.

While the Soviets were thought to be a problem, if they were that big of a problem perhaps Truman should have nuke them while he had the chance. As it was, he passed. There's more to this story than most people here are discussing.

Nuking Russia in 1945 would have been stupid, and would forever have tarnished the image of the United States as a reliable ally.

Whatever crimes Stalin perpetrated on his people, the USSR lived up to its obligations as our ally against the Axis powers. They promised to join us in attacking Japan as soon as Nazi Germany was defeated, and they not only lived up to their end of the bargain, but they destroyed the largest remaining Japanese Army formation, the Kwangtung Army.

I do not think a Soviet occupation of Hokkaido would have been a good outcome. And for that reason we have to admire the vision of FDR and Truman for a military occupation of Japan and the dismantling of their military dictatorship and warrior ethos.

 

[cancel2 2022]

We didn't target civilians. The A-bombs were dropped on military targets.



When the A-bombs were dropped, Japan was still refusing to surrender.



Who did what to the Germans after the war was over?

Curtis Le May had absolutely no qualms about firebombing Tokyo and killing 100,000 civilians. Yet even be baulked at the use of nuclear weapons

 

[Nordberg]

That is incorrect. The point was to make Japan surrender.



They were saved as targets.



Hiroshima was not so much a manufacturing center as it was a gigantic military base.

It is true that it was saved as a target, as was Kokura Arsenal. This allowed us to shock Japan's government with the power of the A-bombs and potentially intimidate them into surrender.

We should have saved Yokohama for the A-bombs as well. It would have made a much better alternate than Nagasaki did.

Nope. The behind the scenes deal was already nearly finished. Japan was done, as Ike and Leahy said. But what do they know compared to you? We could have leveled those cities like we did the others and not used nukes. We owned the skies. We firebombed many. many cities and in some cities, killed more than the Abomb could have. It was a show of strength and a scientific experiment. They spent over a trillion dollars making those 2 bombs and were not going to skip seeing what they could do.
I know you want to believe that stuff, but it just isn't true. It is what the victor says when it is over. They write the history. That is why we say we did not torture, but we did. We say we did not gun down unarmed citizens and children, but we did.

 

[moon]

Moon likes them.

Libelous loser. Go nuke someone.