Waiting Periods at Gun Shows

[Billy the Great Khan]

Before I get into this, this topic was inspired by my debate with Superfreak in the championship on the matter of gun control.

Now we're both pretty strong 2A proponents, but he feels there is no harm in putting a waiting period on guns purchased at gun shows. He didn't elaborate why, but in this case it matters little.

The fact is gun shows are groups of multiple licensed dealers getting together, with a few non dealers looking to trade or get rid of a piece of their collection. They typically only last 2-3 days, so a waiting period would essentially kill the entire gun show. And it wouldn't help in any rate, especially with the non dealers, who cannot legally preform background checks (they can however, ask a dealer to preform one, usually for a fee).

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

We don't really need waiting periods, but it would be nice if we could get background checks.

However, the primary source of illegal guns to criminals is still probably going to be from straw buyers and family members. Until we can throw something on violent felons that magically alerts the police every time they pickup a gun, this is going to be a problem.

 

[Billy the Great Khan]

We don't really need waiting periods, but it would be nice if we could get background checks.

However, the primary source of illegal guns to criminals is still probably going to be from straw buyers and family members. Until we can throw something on violent felons that magically alerts the police every time they pickup a gun, this is going to be a problem.

Not even straw purchases. Combined with legal purchases they make up only about 7% of guns used in crimes, which itself is a misread statistic, because all my guns can be listed as guns used in crime if I deal weed out of my house.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Before I get into this, this topic was inspired by my debate with Superfreak in the championship on the matter of gun control.

Now we're both pretty strong 2A proponents, but he feels there is no harm in putting a waiting period on guns purchased at gun shows. He didn't elaborate why, but in this case it matters little.

The fact is gun shows are groups of multiple licensed dealers getting together, with a few non dealers looking to trade or get rid of a piece of their collection. They typically only last 2-3 days, so a waiting period would essentially kill the entire gun show. And it wouldn't help in any rate, especially with the non dealers, who cannot legally preform background checks (they can however, ask a dealer to preform one, usually for a fee).

What controls then would you suggest Gun Shows use to assure those who are not legally eligible cannot purchase a gun there?

 

[Billy the Great Khan]

What controls then would you suggest Gun Shows use to assure those who are not legally eligible cannot purchase a gun there?

Dealers are required by law to do a background check, no matter where they are selling the gun. Now, if you wanted private sellers to do that, but only at gun shows, they could easily go out to the parking lot of the nearest gas station and be completely within the law.

Gun shows aren't a problem. Very few guns used in crime (like I mentioned earlier, a flawed statistic itself) come from gun shows.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

background checks and waiting periods are horseshit and should be ruled unconstitutional on it's face. The best example to show why waiting periods should be illegal is the LA riots. Once the rioting headed north towards the rich peoples area, people went in droves to gun shops to buy a gun for protection, only to be told they had to wait 10 days according to california law. ROFL, take that liberal fuckhead anti gun nazis.

 

[Billy the Great Khan]

background checks and waiting periods are horseshit and should be ruled unconstitutional on it's face. The best example to show why waiting periods should be illegal is the LA riots. Once the rioting headed north towards the rich peoples area, people went in droves to gun shops to buy a gun for protection, only to be told they had to wait 10 days according to california law. ROFL, take that liberal fuckhead anti gun nazis.

Waiting periods yeah, but not so much background checks, mainly because you can lose rights upon conviction of a crime (4A and all that). Now if we wanted to amend the USC to only violent felonies, that's fine with me, but a different kettle of fish than background checks altogether.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

Waiting periods yeah, but not so much background checks, mainly because you can lose rights upon conviction of a crime (4A and all that).

now lets consider the 5th Amendment.

"nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

standard practice before the late 19th century was total restoration of rights after time served. it should never have been changed.

Now if we wanted to amend the USC to only violent felonies, that's fine with me, but a different kettle of fish than background checks altogether.

did implementing background checks do anything to lower the crime rate? If a law can't solidly prove that it has an effect on non-law abiding citizens, then the law should be nullified because then it only affects the law abiding.

 

[Billy the Great Khan]

now lets consider the 5th Amendment.

"nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"

standard practice before the late 19th century was total restoration of rights after time served. it should never have been changed.

Yeah, I know. Strictly speaking though, removing the right and keeping it removed still flies with the whole due process thing (which is what I meant instead of 4A).

did implementing background checks do anything to lower the crime rate? If a law can't solidly prove that it has an effect on non-law abiding citizens, then the law should be nullified because then it only affects the law abiding.

There is no evidence that says background checks prevent crime. They do prevent 'prohibited' people from buying guns, but that is no indication that they actually lower crime. I wouldn't be against background checks going away forever, but I'm not against them being used by dealers either. That's about the extent that I'd like to see gun control go. The only thing that bothers me is the retention of 4473s.

 

[Good Luck]

The anti-gun liberals are all worried about firearms sales at gun shows. That is a joke. Why would a criminal intent on harm pay market prices for the premium firearms found in a gun show when they can get a usable firearm for black market price in a back alley? (WAY less than market because it's most often a piece another criminal wants to get rid of, for easily deduced reasons.) Background checks are reasonable, because there has to be some method for a dealer to show reasonable compliance with the valid law that convicted criminals cannot purchase firearms. But background checks can also be accomplished in under 5 minutes.

When someone can show, with genuine data and valid analysis, that waiting periods and similar types of laws, which only affect LEGAL sales of firearms, actually prevent crimes using firearms, then I will support them. But where the wheels meet the pavement, the data does NOT show anything of the like. These laws only affect legal sales to law abiding citizens; not exactly the targeted group. The only reason such laws exist is the politicos need something to point to when people ask what they are doing about violent crime. Real crime control is too controversial (harsher penalties, reduced availability of parole, harsher prison conditions, etc.), and/or takes too long - gotta get it done by the next election cycle, which means passing some stupid assed law against common citizens and disguised as being only against criminals.

What amazes me is the numbers of mindless drones that buy into it as a valid method of crime control.

 

[Billy the Great Khan]

The only reason such laws exist is the politicos need something to point to when people ask what they are doing about violent crime. Real crime control is too controversial (harsher penalties, reduced availability of parole, harsher prison conditions, etc.), and/or takes too long - gotta get it done by the next election cycle, which means passing some stupid assed law against common citizens and disguised as being only against criminals.