That Libertarian Paradise, Somalia...

[Damocles]

Seems a bit more capable than Janet Incompitano...

First, I find it amazing that an airport still operates in Somalia, but come on!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/af_somalia

MOGADISHU, Somalia – A man tried to board a commercial airliner in Mogadishu last month carrying powdered chemicals, liquid and a syringe that could have caused an explosion in a case bearing chilling similarities to the terrorist plot to blow up a Detroit-bound airliner, officials told The Associated Press on Wednesday.

More at link...

 

[Bonestorm]

Seems a bit more capable than Janet Incompitano...

First, I find it amazing that an airport still operates in Somalia, but come on!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/af_somalia

MOGADISHU, Somalia – A man tried to board a commercial airliner in Mogadishu last month carrying powdered chemicals, liquid and a syringe that could have caused an explosion in a case bearing chilling similarities to the terrorist plot to blow up a Detroit-bound airliner, officials told The Associated Press on Wednesday.

More at link...

Isn't this evidence that the Somali airport security seems a bit more capable that the Dutch airport security?

 

[Damocles]

Isn't this evidence that the Somali airport security seems a bit more capable that the Dutch airport security?

Not quite. The Dutch Aiport Security had the list disseminated by the DHS which should have included the name of the dude whose father had reported to the US as radicalized. Instead, that list didn't have a name it should have, because Janet can't run a Bureaucracy efficiently.

Anyway, this thread was really more of a poke at Watermark's constant driving at how crappy everything is in Somalia... Hence the title. And I just wanted to use that phrase that made me laugh when I heard it on the radio this morning...

It isn't as funny in print though.

 

[Damocles]

To be fair to Napolitano, the Congress passed a measure that disallows the scanners that would have caught this guy. Because of this, even flights from other nations coming here cannot be subject to the scanners. It is very likely he would have been caught if we weren't so scared of anonymous and faceless images of ourselves being viewed by somebody who cannot see us and will never see us....

 

[Bonestorm]

Not quite. The Dutch Aiport Security had the list disseminated by the DHS which should have included the name of the dude whose father had reported to the US as radicalized. Instead, that list didn't have a name it should have, because Janet can't run a Bureaucracy efficiently.

But she ran it efficiently last month when the man was stopped in Somalia?

Look, I know you're in full on hack mode, but at least try to make coherent point. I suppose getting upset that the TSA currently has no administrator because the Republicans have blocked Obama's nominee because they hate labor unions would cause your head to explode. Doesn't that bother you?

And hey, maybe Napolitiano did screw up, but there isn't any evidence that she screwed up as opposed to folks in the intelligence community over whom she has no authority. She said something stupid and all of the sudden she's heckuva job Brownie notwithstanding that she is uniquely qualified for the position.

Shoot first and ask questions later, I guess.

 

[Damocles]

But she ran it efficiently last month when the man was stopped in Somalia?

Look, I know you're in full on hack mode, but at least try to make coherent point. I suppose getting upset that the TSA currently has no administrator because the Republicans have blocked Obama's nominee because they hate labor unions would cause your head to explode. Doesn't that bother you?

And hey, maybe Napolitiano did screw up, but there isn't any evidence that she screwed up as opposed to folks in the intelligence community over whom she has no authority. She said something stupid and all of the sudden she's heckuva job Brownie notwithstanding that she is uniquely qualified for the position.

Shoot first and ask questions later, I guess.

Nope, that man was stopped by a different group of people, and without a list. You are again being deliberately obtuse.

The dude stopped in Somalia was caught because they discovered the bomb. The dude that had the bomb in his underwear should have been caught because of the list he should have been on but because Janet is incompetent never got to...

And again, the thread is more about Watermark's inane "Somalia is Libertarian Heaven" threads.

But since you insist: To say that the Homeland Security Secretary has no control over the intelligence bureaucracy is just beyond any level of credibility. You are now desperately trying to cover the incompetence of another solely because of who appointed her. You are the only person talking about her "remark" as if that is the only mistake or responsibility she has in this incident, it's preposterous.

 

[Bonestorm]

Nope, that man was stopped by a different group of people, and without a list. You are again being deliberately obtuse.

The dude stopped in Somalia was caught because they discovered the bomb. The dude that had the bomb in his underwear should have been caught because of the list he should have been on but because Janet is incompetent never got to...

What list is that and who is it that develops the list and from where do they get the information to decide who is put on it?

 

[Damocles]

What list is that and who is it that develops the list and from where do they get the information to decide who is put on it?

Quit being so cripplingly and deliberately obtuse. I'll get back at you in a couple minutes, when I have some time.

 

[Bonestorm]

Quit being so cripplingly and deliberately obtuse. I'll get back at you in a couple minutes, when I have some time.

I'm not being obtuse. You asserted that the guy wasn't on some particular list because Napolitiano fucked up. If you are making such charges you should at least know that the list is compiled by some agency under her direction.

In fact, the list that the bomber was on was is called the Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment and it is compiled and maintained by the Terrorist Identities Group within the National Counterterrorism Center which falls under the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. In short, that list has exactly nothing to do with Napolitiano.

The scalp you should be gunning for, if any, is Admiral Blair's, not Napolitiano's.


[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_Identities_Datamart_Environment[/ame]

 

[Damocles]

What list is that and who is it that develops the list and from where do they get the information to decide who is put on it?

There is a "no fly" list created and maintained in the US by DHS, that people who are reported by their fathers as radicalized and a danger are put on. Usually such reports do not sit for a month in offices under the control of the HSS, but this one did, because it sat there this gentleman's name didn't appear in the database that would have ensured he could not have traveled on the plane.

I'll notice that on your previous post you did suddenly "find" a list that this gentleman should have been included on. So, yes, I will maintain that you are being deliberately obtuse.

 

[Bonestorm]

There is a "no travel" list, that people who are reported by their fathers as radicalized and a danger are put on. Usually such reports do not sit for a month in offices under the control of the HSS, but this one did, because it sat there this gentleman's name didn't appear in the database that would have insured he could not have traveled on the plane.

Actually, no. There is a quite large Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment list that people who are reported by their fathers are radicalized are put on. It consists of about half a million people. As indicated above, that list is maintained by the National Counterterrorism Center which falls under the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. The Detroit bomber was on this list.

For those that are known or reasonably suspected to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism are placed on a slightly shorter list, the Terrorist Screening Database which is maintained by the Terrorist Screening Center of the FBI. That list consist of about 400,000 names. The Detroit bomber was not on this list.

From the Terrorist Screening Database that the Detroit bomber did not appear on, there is a 4,000 name "no fly" list and a 14,000 name "selectee" list. Given that the Detroit bomber was not on the Terrorist Screening Database he could not have appeared on either the "no fly" or "selectee" list.

So, again, you're wrong. Like I said, shoot first, ask questions later.


http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2613148620091227?type=marketsNews

 

[Damocles]

Actually, no. There is a quite large Terrorist Identities Datamart Environment list that people who are reported by their fathers are radicalized are put on. It consists of about half a million people. As indicated above, that list is maintained by the National Counterterrorism Center which falls under the Office of the Director of National Intelligence. The Detroit bomber was on this list.

For those that are known or reasonably suspected to be or have been engaged in conduct constituting, in preparation for, in aid of, or related to terrorism are placed on a slightly shorter list, the Terrorist Screening Database which is maintained by the Terrorist Screening Center of the FBI. That list consist of about 400,000 names. The Detroit bomber was not on this list.

From the Terrorist Screening Database that the Detroit bomber did not appear on, there is a 4,000 name "no fly" list and a 14,000 name "selectee" list. Given that the Detroit bomber was not on the Terrorist Screening Database he could not have appeared on either the "no fly" or "selectee" list.

So, again, you're wrong. Like I said, shoot first, ask questions later.


http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2613148620091227?type=marketsNews

LOL.

This ignores the US "No Fly" list that is maintained and disseminated by the US to all the places where travel to the US takes place.

Thanks for playing, but you are simply wrong. This man's name should have been on the no fly list and wasn't because it sat and gathered dust under Napolitano's watch. You might be interested in it, Chertoff talked about it, and how at that time there were only 2500 names on that list (contrary to the belief of the ACLU), although the secondary list that made those people subject to additional scrutiny (where this guy at least should have been without a doubt) was much larger.

Interestingly enough, Chertoff's Homeland Security sucked too, the list often wasn't disseminated properly.

 

[Bonestorm]

There is a "no fly" list created and maintained in the US by DHS, that people who are reported by their fathers as radicalized and a danger are put on. Usually such reports do not sit for a month in offices under the control of the HSS, but this one did, because it sat there this gentleman's name didn't appear in the database that would have ensured he could not have traveled on the plane.

I'll notice that on your previous post you did suddenly "find" a list that this gentleman should have been included on. So, yes, I will maintain that you are being deliberately obtuse.

To respond to your edit about me being obtuse. I didn't "find" a list that this gentleman (your word) should have been on. I informed you of the list that the gentleman did in fact appear on and explained to you that the list he did appear on is not maintained by the DHS but is maintained by the Office of the DNI.

 

[Bonestorm]

LOL.

This ignores the US "No Fly" list that is maintained and disseminated by the US to all the places where travel to the US takes place.

Thanks for playing.

Apparently you didn't read my post because if you did you would realize that, while the US does indeed have a "No Fly" list, the Detroit bomber could never have appeared on it.

In order to get on the "No Fly" list, you first have to appear in the 400,000 person Terrorist Screening Database (TSDB) which is maintained by the Terrorist Screening Center of the FBI. Because the Detroit bomber was not included on the TSDB, he could never have been included on the "No Fly" list.

Jackass.

 

[Damocles]

Apparently you didn't read my post because if you did you would realize that, while the US does indeed have a "No Fly" list, the Detroit bomber could never have appeared on it.

In order to get on the "No Fly" list, you first have to appear in the 400,000 person Terrorist Screening Database (TSDB) which is maintained by the Terrorist Screening Center of the FBI. Because the Detroit bomber was not included on the TSDB, he could never have been included on the "No Fly" list.

Jackass.

LOL. Again, he didn't "appear" there because his father's report sat on a desk at the CIA instead of being correctly worked. And yes, that is a sign of the lack of efficiency under Napolitano that needs to be corrected.

Donkey. You one more time desperately try to defend the indefensible in the name of the person who appointed another... It's fricking sad to watch all the people who kept me in line when my party was in charge go the same way of all the Bush supporters. Unwilling to allow for even one piece of responsibility due the people in charge.

 

[Bonestorm]

LOL. Again, he didn't "appear" there because his father's report sat on a desk at the CIA instead of being correctly worked. And yes, that is a sign of the lack of efficiency under Napolitano that needs to be corrected.

Donkey. You one more time desperately try to defend the indefensible in the name of the person who appointed another... It's fricking sad to watch all the people who kept me in line when my party was in charge go the same way of all the Bush supporters. Unwilling to allow for even one piece of responsibility due the people in charge.

You're a fucking jackass. I've explained to you how the process works. Maybe I should draw you a fucking picture. In order to be on the "No Fly" or "Selectee" list maintained by the TSA, a person has to be on the list maintained by the FBI. The bomber wasn't on the list maintained by the FBI. Instead, he was only on the larger list maintained by the Office of the DNI.

I'll freely admit that there needs to be a thorough investigation as to why the guy wasn't at least put on the list maintained by the FBI and that if someone fucked up then a head should roll. But Napolitiano isn't responsible for the FBI list or the decision-making process as to who gets promoted from the DNI list to the FBI list. If he was on the FBI list then at least there is a claim that he should have been elevated to the "No Fly" or "Selectee" lists that fall under the purview of DHS. But he wasn't.

Shoot, ready, aim does not lead to good governance. Firing Napolitiano for something out of her control while retaining the potentially responsible party is just plain stupid.


Edit: And even assuming you were correct that the name sat on a desk at the CIA, what does that have to do with Napolitiano. The CIA doesn't fall under the umbrella of the DHS.

 

[Damocles]

You're a fucking jackass. I've explained to you how the process works. Maybe I should draw you a fucking picture. In order to be on the "No Fly" or "Selectee" list maintained by the TSA, a person has to be on the list maintained by the FBI. The bomber wasn't on the list maintained by the FBI. Instead, he was only on the larger list maintained by the Office of the DNI.

I'll freely admit that there needs to be a thorough investigation as to why the guy wasn't at least put on the list maintained by the FBI and that if someone fucked up then a head should roll. But Napolitiano isn't responsible for the FBI list or the decision-making process as to who gets promoted from the DNI list to the FBI list. If he was on the FBI list then at least there is a claim that he should have been elevated to the "No Fly" or "Selectee" lists that fall under the purview of DHS. But he wasn't.

Shoot, ready, aim does not lead to good governance. Firing Napolitiano for something out of her control while retaining the potentially responsible party is just plain stupid.


Edit: And even assuming you were correct that the name sat on a desk at the CIA, what does that have to do with Napolitiano. The CIA doesn't fall under the umbrella of the DHS.

You have explained how you want it to work. Had this been correctly worked by the intelligence agencies after the young gentleman was reported by his father, the gentleman's name would have appeared on both of those lists. Thankyewverymuch.

This is true regardless of how many times you call me the name of an animal, or get all mad and stuff. It isn't helping your argument that you are so emotional about it, in fact it gives us insight as to why it is so important to you that we disregard information in support of what you want us to believe.

So, please. Continue calling me by the name of some biblical animal, it certainly helps buttress my argument.

 

[Bonestorm]

You have explained how you want it to work. Had this been correctly worked by the intelligence agencies after the young gentleman was reported by his father, the gentleman's name would have appeared on both of those lists. Thankyewverymuch.

This is true regardless of how many times you call me the name of an animal, or get all mad and stuff. It isn't helping your argument that you are so emotional about it, in fact it gives us insight as to why it is so important to you that we disregard information in support of what you want us to believe.

So, please. Continue calling me by the name of some biblical animal, it certainly helps buttress my argument.

My simple point is that criticizing Napolitiano and calling for her to be fired for something that does not fall within the purview of the DHS is mind-bogglingly stupid. Want to fire someone, start at DNI and FBI. I'll even join you on that one. That's where the screw-up happened if it happened at all.

 

[Damocles]

My simple point is that criticizing Napolitiano and calling for her to be fired for something that does not fall within the purview of the DHS is mind-bogglingly stupid. Want to fire someone, start at DNI and FBI. I'll even join you on that one. That's where the screw-up happened if it happened at all.

When did I call for her to be fired? That's your thang.

My hope is that in the future the President appoints more qualified individuals at the onset so that such learn-as-you-go mistakes are much smaller. This time we lucked out, first that the trigger is always the most difficult part of the bomb, second that a brave Dutchman was willing to reach through six foot flames into some other dude's pants and literally rip off his underwear in order to save a plane and his own life. That is one awesome Dutchman, and I hope he gets at least some sort of recognition by our government.

We won't always be so lucky.