Murder Somebody? Hey, it was God's Plan!

Yurt said:
you sure about that?
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Is reading comprehension a problem for you?

And, yes, socialists, like the most of the FOUNDERS, don't believe in the supernatural.

Does that say to you that the Founders were socialists .. or does that say that on the question of supernatural, both socialists and the Founders don't believe in it?
 
Oh no, another gotcha question!! You do realize that you're talking to an example of those that HATE the enlightenment?! (I know you know that...just teasing)
 
blackascoal said:
Is reading comprehension a problem for you?

And, yes, socialists, like the most of the FOUNDERS, don't believe in the supernatural.

Does that say to you that the Founders were socialists .. or does that say that on the question of supernatural, both socialists and the Founders don't believe in it?
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now that you explain it...ambiguous statement though and could be read in more than one way
 
blackascoal said:
"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." --- Thomas Jefferson, from "Notes on Virginia"

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." --- Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

"But the greatest of all reformers of the depraved religion of his own country, was Jesus of Nazareth. Abstracting what is really his from the rubbish in which it is buried, easily distinguished by its lustre from the dross of his biographers, and as separable from that as the diamond from the dunghill, we have the outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man. The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent morality, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from artificial systems, invented by ultra-Christian sects (The immaculate conception of Jesus, his deification, the creation of the world by him, his miraculous powers, his resurrection and visible ascension, his corporeal presence in the Eucharist, the Trinity; original sin, atonement, regeneration, election, orders of the Hierarchy, etc.) is a most desirable object." --- Thomas Jefferson to W. Short, Oct. 31, 1819
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Or was he? While Jefferson has been lionized by those who seek to drive religion from public life, the true Thomas Jefferson is anything but their friend. He was anything but irreligious, anything but an enemy to Christian faith. Our nation’s third president was, in fact, a student of Scripture who attended church regularly, and was an active member of the Anglican Church, where he served on his local vestry. He was married in church, sent his children and a nephew to a Christian school, and gave his money to support many different congregations and Christian causes.

Moreover, his “Notes on Religion,” nine documents Jefferson wrote in 1776, are “very orthodox statements about the inspiration of Scripture and Jesus as the Christ,” according to Mark Beliles, a Providence Foundation scholar and author of an enlightening essay on Jefferson’s religious life.

So what about the Jefferson Bible, that miracles-free version of the Scriptures? That, too, is a myth. It is not a Bible, but an abridgement of the Gospels created by Jefferson in 1804 for the benefit of the Indians. Jefferson’s “Philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth Extracted From the New Testament for the Use of the Indians” was a tool to evangelize and educate American Indians. There is no evidence that it was an expression of his skepticism.

Jefferson, who gave his money to assist missionary work among the Indians, believed his “abridgement of the New Testament for the use of the Indians” would help civilize and educate America’s aboriginal inhabitants. Nor did Jefferson cut all miracles from his work, as Beliles points out. While the original manuscript no longer exists, the Table of Texts that survives includes several accounts of Christ’s healings.

But didn’t Jefferson believe in the complete separation of church and state? After all, Jefferson’s 1802 letter to the Baptists in Danbury, Conn., in which he cited the First Amendment’s creation of a “wall of separation” between church and state, is an ACLU proof-text for its claim that the First Amendment makes the public square a religion-free zone. But if the ACLU is right, why, just two days after he sent his letter to the Danbury Baptists did President Jefferson attend public worship services in the U.S. Capitol building, something he did throughout his two terms in office? And why did he authorize the use of the War Office and the Treasury building for church services in Washington, D.C.?

http://www.wnd.com/2002/06/14285/
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"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" --- John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" --- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson
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On Adams

Deism’s invention is often credited to Edward, the first Lord Herbert of Cherbury, England, who died in 1648. In The Faiths of the Founding Fathers, David L. Holmes, a professor of religious studies at the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg, catalogues Herbert’s “classic five points of Deism”:

That God exists
That “he ought to be worshiped”
That practicing virtue is the primary way so to do
That sins can be repented of
That there is life after death
On the fifth point, Jefferson said that the deceased “ascend in essence to an ecstatic meeting with the friends we have loved and lost and whom we shall still love and never lose again.” John Adams captured much of Herbert’s five points in one sentence: “My religion is founded on the love of God and my neighbor; on the hope of pardon for my offenses; upon contrition; . . . in the duty of doing . . . all the good I can, to the creation of which I am but an infinitesimal part.”

http://www.history.org/foundation/journal/spring09/deism.cfm
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As for the Treaty of Tripoli that most atheists pull out when wanting to do as you do here which is distort the founding of this nation, and its Judeo Christian roots.

As a bit of historical background, Muslims were notorious for harassing and making slaves of infidels, and the "Barbary" pirates were a huge threat to US ships, as we didn't have the kind of naval power that England and Spain did. Hence, eventually, this treaty, partially written to assuage Muslim fears that "the infidels" were as religiously-motivated as they were.

In what senses is the Treaty of Tripoli correct? Certainly it's correct when it insists "the government" is not founded on the Christian religion -- especially when compared to Islamic sharia, in which the strictures of the religion actually serve as state law.

But is it accurate to read it, as ardent secularists apparently do, as asserting the US has no Christian influences at all? Let's not get silly here: it's a legal document, not a historical treatise. If we want to find out what values shaped our country, we would consult a document like the Declaration of Independence (which created our nation) or the lives and views of the Founders -- not an obscure treaty with a group of hostile Muslim pirates.

http://tim.2wgroup.com/blog/archives/001435.html
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I knew you knew nothing of history .. which is why I baited you.
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Oh, I know history all right, just not your bastardization of it....As for "baiting" that is all you have...a dishonest tactic.
 
j-mac said:
On Adams




As for the Treaty of Tripoli that most atheists pull out when wanting to do as you do here which is distort the founding of this nation, and its Judeo Christian roots.





Oh, I know history all right, just not your bastardization of it....As for "baiting" that is all you have...a dishonest tactic.
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lol...where would you be without Wikipedia?
 
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