more hope and change

http://ccrjustice.org/ourcases/current-cases/rasul-v.-rumsfeld

The Obama administration endorses torture and religious abuse for all 'enemy combatants' with no accountability for how a person acquires this new title.

yippee and hooray for the new legal blackhole from a tyrannical government.

Proud to be an American. :good4u:


Perhaps you could help an old man.

I've read that article twice now and I don't see "The Obama administration endorses torture and religious abuse" or any kind of statement even vaguely resembling that mentioned once.

The way it read to me, you've got a beef with whichever administration nominated those Judges.

But maybe I'm wrong.
 
Perhaps you could help an old man.

I've read that article twice now and I don't see "The Obama administration endorses torture and religious abuse" or any kind of statement even vaguely resembling that mentioned once.

The way it read to me, you've got a beef with whichever administration nominated those Judges.

But maybe I'm wrong.

Don't you think you should reexamine yourself when you find yourself on rumsfelds's side?
 
Don't you think you should reexamine yourself when you find yourself on rumsfelds's side?

I'm not on Rummy's side and I think the Judge's ruling was wrong.

I just don't get how that translates to "The Obama administration endorses torture and prisoner abuse", when the Judges making the ruling were nominated by a PREVIOUS PRESIDENT, and there is little Obama can do about it...yet.
 
I'm not on Rummy's side and I think the Judge's ruling was wrong.

I just don't get how that translates to "The Obama administration endorses torture and prisoner abuse", when the Judges making the ruling were nominated by a PREVIOUS PRESIDENT, and there is little Obama can do about it...yet.

Well, it does.
 
Perhaps you could help an old man.

I've read that article twice now and I don't see "The Obama administration endorses torture and religious abuse" or any kind of statement even vaguely resembling that mentioned once.

The way it read to me, you've got a beef with whichever administration nominated those Judges.

But maybe I'm wrong.

you see, it sorta goes like this.

when the previous administration writes a brief for the district court in favor of keeping those policies and qualified immunities intact, then the new administration writes a brief for the circuit court that say the court should dismiss the appeal out of hand, it's a tacit endorsement of those policies and immunities. If the Obama administration were against that torture and qualified immunity, they would have written a brief to the circuit court denouncing them. That didn't happen here.

so by default, both the democrat and republican political parties and their elected leaders endorse and support torture, rendition, enemy combatant status, and non accountability for the crimes against humanity.
 
you see, it sorta goes like this.

when the previous administration writes a brief for the district court in favor of keeping those policies and qualified immunities intact, then the new administration writes a brief for the circuit court that say the court should dismiss the appeal out of hand, it's a tacit endorsement of those policies and immunities. If the Obama administration were against that torture and qualified immunity, they would have written a brief to the circuit court denouncing them. That didn't happen here.

so by default, both the democrat and republican political parties and their elected leaders endorse and support torture, rendition, enemy combatant status, and non accountability for the crimes against humanity.

Well then you are right and the Obama administration is WRONG!

I now know a little more than I did when I came to work this morning.

Thank you.
 
The problem is in the laws on the books, not with the courts' decisions. Under the law at the time of the transgressions, a non-uniformed enemy combatant literally has zero rights under either international law, nor the Constitution.

The courts cannot rightfully do anything except uphold the laws that are on the books. They cannot make law, nor punish anyone under laws that do not exist. Not even someone who rightfully deserves to be punished. Nor can they prosecute under laws written after the transgressions - that would be, of course, ex post facto.

We need to write laws that protect people from the types of activities that took place under Rumsfeld and his inhuman cronies - laws that cover both civilian and military situations. IMO, all enemy combatants should be held under the international agreements governing prisoners of war. The definitions of military conflict have changed since the law limited Geneva protections to uniformed combatants.

I do not believe they deserve constitutional protections because an enemy combatant is not a criminal - they are functionally a military enemy.

I also believe that we need to write some solid code, both in civilian law and in military law, that prescribes a proper and thorough process for how a detainee is determined to be an enemy combatant. If they are foreigners captured on foreign soil, there needs to be a standardized process to determine their status quickly and efficiently. Anyone determined to be an enemy combatant becomes a POW and is treated as such including all international protections against abuse, torture, extensive questioning, etc. If the process finds them to be a non-combatant civilian, then they should be freed as soon as possible after that determination is made. They definitely should not be held and transported to a major detention facility away from their homes until AFTER they are officially determined to be an enemy combatant.

Foreign persons caught in acts of terrorism on U.S. soil fall under the 14th Amendment, being technically "U.S. persons". But, rather than giving them a U.S. citizen's trial in full blown glory, I would propose we use due process to strip them of any constitutional rights (an act which the 14th Amendment does provide for) and hand them over to military tribunal as rapidly as is possible. ie: if the are not U.S. citizens, and are engaged in acts of terrorism, conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism, or involved in espionage for terrorists or acknowledged enemies of the United States (all of which need to be carefully and specifically defined in our law code), then the due process (trial) should be limited to determine the fact that their actions constitute terrorist or domestic enemy activities, and thereby legally and constitutionally place them in the role of enemy espionage agent. (which holds a different definition from enemy combatant. Enemy espionage agents - spies - can be summarily executed through military tribunal.)

If whatever crime was committed is found to NOT fall under the definition of terrorist or enemy espionage, then the suspect is remanded back to the normal criminal courts and so treated as a normal criminal suspect.
 
The problem is in the laws on the books, not with the courts' decisions. Under the law at the time of the transgressions, a non-uniformed enemy combatant literally has zero rights under either international law, nor the Constitution.

The courts cannot rightfully do anything except uphold the laws that are on the books. They cannot make law, nor punish anyone under laws that do not exist. Not even someone who rightfully deserves to be punished. Nor can they prosecute under laws written after the transgressions - that would be, of course, ex post facto.

We need to write laws that protect people from the types of activities that took place under Rumsfeld and his inhuman cronies - laws that cover both civilian and military situations. IMO, all enemy combatants should be held under the international agreements governing prisoners of war. The definitions of military conflict have changed since the law limited Geneva protections to uniformed combatants.

I do not believe they deserve constitutional protections because an enemy combatant is not a criminal - they are functionally a military enemy.

I also believe that we need to write some solid code, both in civilian law and in military law, that prescribes a proper and thorough process for how a detainee is determined to be an enemy combatant. If they are foreigners captured on foreign soil, there needs to be a standardized process to determine their status quickly and efficiently. Anyone determined to be an enemy combatant becomes a POW and is treated as such including all international protections against abuse, torture, extensive questioning, etc. If the process finds them to be a non-combatant civilian, then they should be freed as soon as possible after that determination is made. They definitely should not be held and transported to a major detention facility away from their homes until AFTER they are officially determined to be an enemy combatant.

Foreign persons caught in acts of terrorism on U.S. soil fall under the 14th Amendment, being technically "U.S. persons". But, rather than giving them a U.S. citizen's trial in full blown glory, I would propose we use due process to strip them of any constitutional rights (an act which the 14th Amendment does provide for) and hand them over to military tribunal as rapidly as is possible. ie: if the are not U.S. citizens, and are engaged in acts of terrorism, conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism, or involved in espionage for terrorists or acknowledged enemies of the United States (all of which need to be carefully and specifically defined in our law code), then the due process (trial) should be limited to determine the fact that their actions constitute terrorist or domestic enemy activities, and thereby legally and constitutionally place them in the role of enemy espionage agent. (which holds a different definition from enemy combatant. Enemy espionage agents - spies - can be summarily executed through military tribunal.)

If whatever crime was committed is found to NOT fall under the definition of terrorist or enemy espionage, then the suspect is remanded back to the normal criminal courts and so treated as a normal criminal suspect.

The problem is they're being claimed not to be a military enemy. They're not an official military from a country. I have nothing else to add or argue with everything else. As far as the normal criminal courts that's why I think it's a good idea to have them tried here in our courts that aren't military so they're not biased in their judging and rulings.
 
The problem is in the laws on the books, not with the courts' decisions. Under the law at the time of the transgressions, a non-uniformed enemy combatant literally has zero rights under either international law, nor the Constitution.

The courts cannot rightfully do anything except uphold the laws that are on the books. They cannot make law, nor punish anyone under laws that do not exist. Not even someone who rightfully deserves to be punished. Nor can they prosecute under laws written after the transgressions - that would be, of course, ex post facto.

We need to write laws that protect people from the types of activities that took place under Rumsfeld and his inhuman cronies - laws that cover both civilian and military situations. IMO, all enemy combatants should be held under the international agreements governing prisoners of war. The definitions of military conflict have changed since the law limited Geneva protections to uniformed combatants.

I do not believe they deserve constitutional protections because an enemy combatant is not a criminal - they are functionally a military enemy.

I also believe that we need to write some solid code, both in civilian law and in military law, that prescribes a proper and thorough process for how a detainee is determined to be an enemy combatant. If they are foreigners captured on foreign soil, there needs to be a standardized process to determine their status quickly and efficiently. Anyone determined to be an enemy combatant becomes a POW and is treated as such including all international protections against abuse, torture, extensive questioning, etc. If the process finds them to be a non-combatant civilian, then they should be freed as soon as possible after that determination is made. They definitely should not be held and transported to a major detention facility away from their homes until AFTER they are officially determined to be an enemy combatant.

Foreign persons caught in acts of terrorism on U.S. soil fall under the 14th Amendment, being technically "U.S. persons". But, rather than giving them a U.S. citizen's trial in full blown glory, I would propose we use due process to strip them of any constitutional rights (an act which the 14th Amendment does provide for) and hand them over to military tribunal as rapidly as is possible. ie: if the are not U.S. citizens, and are engaged in acts of terrorism, conspiracy to commit acts of terrorism, or involved in espionage for terrorists or acknowledged enemies of the United States (all of which need to be carefully and specifically defined in our law code), then the due process (trial) should be limited to determine the fact that their actions constitute terrorist or domestic enemy activities, and thereby legally and constitutionally place them in the role of enemy espionage agent. (which holds a different definition from enemy combatant. Enemy espionage agents - spies - can be summarily executed through military tribunal.)

If whatever crime was committed is found to NOT fall under the definition of terrorist or enemy espionage, then the suspect is remanded back to the normal criminal courts and so treated as a normal criminal suspect.

The whole problem with this line of thinking is it is intended to allow government the power to put people in a 'legal black hole' so that they are non-persons. The constitution does not give them authority to do this, despite the failure of the courts to restrict that power.
 
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