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Darla
Disclaimer: I am posting a piece written by Amanda Marcotte. As Cawacko previously pointed out, she is a woman and she seems to have a lot of opinions. Caution advised.

"Democrats have conquered most demographics in this country, except, of course, white men. This piece in the New York Times about Democratic efforts to capture their vote—or at least more of it—is fascinating insofar as it really shows how much the white male vote is controlled by nothing more than resentment, particularly resentment of women and people of color for spending the last few decades improving their lot in life. It’s not even a vote to restore lost levels of white male privilege, since I think white men must know that putting that genie back into the bottle isn’t going to work. At this point, then, voting Republican is just about punishment. You can’t stop a black guy from being your boss at work and your wife is never going to be Mrs. Cleaver, but you can make life a little harder for women and people of color in revenge for “stealing” the easy life of never having to compete with them that you feel entitled to. Also, MORE GUNS, because your phallic death totems are so soothing and help fill, temporarily, that desire to be a big man.

But there’s nothing more than resentment there. Even the Republican strategist they interview has no idea how petty he makes the white male Republican voter sound."
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- Full piece linked below

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/03/...publican-because-they-vote-their-resentments/

I agree with Marcotte, there is a lot of this at play. Resentment is huge with many white males. However, this comment posted in the comments section really caught my eye:

"I know more than a few middle-class white men who vote Republican. (I know some rich ones, too, but most of them are honest about voting for whatever results in the most money in their bank accounts.) Without a couple exceptions, their voting has more to do with selfishness and delusion than it does with resentment. They truly believe, by voting as they do (to deregulate, preserve tax breaks, and cut services), they are simply paving the way for keeping more of their money that inevitable day they become rich, themselves. And even if they would directly benefit in the present from the programs they oppose, they look forward to the day when they'll be able to claim they never benefitted from the program, so nobody else should have to, either.
Maybe it's just the ones I know, but I see far more of the wishful-thinking type than I do of the resentful type. And since their reasoning is based on what, for the vast majority of them, is an irrational statistical impossibility, it's pretty difficult to dissuade them..."
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He is on to something here and Marcotte gives this aspect short shrift. In fact, I read this book "Death by a thousand tax cuts" and it was a revelation. They had studies showing that over 30% of Americans believed they would someday be in the 1%, and another 30% believed they already were.

That makes 60% of Americans who believe their interests lie with the 1% because they either are part of the 1% or someday will be. Most of us here can do basic math correct? So the problem with this is self-evident.
 
I'll share an antidotal story. My buddy from LA came up to visit last weekend. He is a 36 year old single white male. His dad died from cancer when he was five and his mom was an elementary school teacher so he's just a regular dude who didn't come from money. He's a college grad who is doing an online MBA program from University of North Carolina.

For the five years or so prior to last I'd say he's made between $125K - $160K annually. In 2013 he made $220K. My understanding today is earning $380K puts one in the top 1%. Will my friend ever make $380K in a year? At this rate I'd say yes he will but there are of course no guarantees. Are there others who are like him that may make that amount or may not? I'd say yes. Hell I'm on unemployment insurance right now but it's not out of the question that down the road if an investment fund I'm working on starting up gets off the ground I could earn that amount if all goes well.

My wife is a director of a pre-school. She doesn't make sh*t. If she said she thought she would be in the top 1% one day based on what she's doing I would enroll her in some remedial math classes immediately. But I don't find it surprising at all that a large number of people think they make the top 1% at one point in their lives.
 
cawacko said:
I'll share an antidotal story. My buddy from LA came up to visit last weekend. He is a 36 year old single white male. His dad died from cancer when he was five and his mom was an elementary school teacher so he's just a regular dude who didn't come from money. He's a college grad who is doing an online MBA program from University of North Carolina.

For the five years or so prior to last I'd say he's made between $125K - $160K annually. In 2013 he made $220K. My understanding today is earning $380K puts one in the top 1%. Will my friend ever make $380K in a year? At this rate I'd say yes he will but there are of course no guarantees. Are there others who are like him that may make that amount or may not? I'd say yes. Hell I'm on unemployment insurance right now but it's not out of the question that down the road if an investment fund I'm working on starting up gets off the ground I could earn that amount if all goes well.

My wife is a director of a pre-school. She doesn't make sh*t. If she said she thought she would be in the top 1% one day based on what she's doing I would enroll her in some remedial math classes immediately. But I don't find it surprising at all that a large number of people think they make the top 1% at one point in their lives.
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A large number of people believing that doesn't change the fact that it's called the "Top 1%" for a reason. And that reason is not because it includes, or ever will include, the 60% who believe they will someday be in the top 1%, or already are. There's a word for that, and it's not "belief".

It's "delusion".
 
Darla said:
A large number of people believing that doesn't change the fact that it's called the "Top 1%" for a reason. And that reason is not because it includes, or ever will include, the 60% who believe they will someday be in the top 1%, or already are. There's a word for that, and it's not "belief".

It's "delusion".
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Ok. So people shouldn't set high goals or have big dreams then because that is essentially what you are saying.
 
Darla said:
Disclaimer: I am posting a piece written by Amanda Marcotte. As Cawacko previously pointed out, she is a woman and she seems to have a lot of opinions. Caution advised.

- Full piece linked below

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/03/...publican-because-they-vote-their-resentments/

I agree with Marcotte, there is a lot of this at play. Resentment is huge with many white males. However, this comment posted in the comments section really caught my eye:


He is on to something here and Marcotte gives this aspect short shrift. In fact, I read this book "Death by a thousand tax cuts" and it was a revelation. They had studies showing that over 30% of Americans believed they would someday be in the 1%, and another 30% believed they already were.

That makes 60% of Americans who believe their interests lie with the 1% because they either are part of the 1% or someday will be. Most of us here can do basic math correct? So the problem with this is self-evident.
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I wouldn't put it on married white men. You're talking about a very particular demographic that tends towards the right: it's a culture under threat that is: pro business, religious and either current or ex military: take this for example The rest of the married white men; like myeslf, are going about our lives and enjoying the scenery. We tend to vote Democratic, we belong to unions, we are of above average intelligence (not bragging, we just read a lot), and we realize: participate in and help create the real world; which the minority of which you speak feels threatened by.
 
cawacko said:
Ok. So people shouldn't set high goals or have big dreams then because that is essentially what you are saying.
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Why do goals and dreams have to revolve so much around "getting rich"? Why is having enough not enough of a goal? For me personally, life balance, and mental and emotional peace are more of a priority than "Getting rich". Which I have no desire to do. Everyone's definition of enough differs of course. Yearly vacation, or months long world travel? Coach or Gucci? Whatever.

The problem is Cawacko, that when an unemployed white male, feels his financial interests have more in common with those voting against UI extensions than those advocating and voting for them, then he has been deluded. And this isn't personal. I understand that your field has high unemployment and it's no reflection on you. But people who think like you do, and vote the way you do, really fuck their peers. It's just that they don't seem to get who their peers actually are.

Continuing rising economic inequality should do away with much of this problem, and perhaps then we'll see a change. I doubt younger men will be as apt to buy into the tales older generations have taken as gospel.
 
jet57 said:
I wouldn't put it on married white men. You're talking about a very particular demographic that tends towards the right: it's a culture under threat that is: pro business, religious and either current or ex military. The rest of the married white men; like myeslf, are going about our lives and enjoying the scenery. We tend to vote Democratic, we belong to unions, we are of above average intelligence (not bragging, we just read a lot), and we realize: participate in and help create the real world; which the minority of which you speak feels threatened by.
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Well, Marcotte's point is that the one demographic the Republicans still have a stronghold on is married white males. That's a fact that isn't in dispute. The why of it can be debated of course. She states in her opening sentence that she is not talking about ALL married white males. ALL married white males don't vote Republican, so there is no "all". It's a matter of the majority though.
 
I used to have this discussion quite a bit in my collegiate days when I was a hipster Marxist, trying to goad my capitalist friends. With the ol' "veil of ignorance" - where all you knew was that you COULD make millions, even though there was a very slight change %-wise, most people would still choose a system where they could, instead of one that would limit income or be more egalitarian.

Definitely seems illogical, but if I had to guess, I think it's just part of the human spirit. We probably tend to think more of ourselves than reality would indicate.
 
Thing1 said:
I used to have this discussion quite a bit in my collegiate days when I was a hipster Marxist, trying to goad my capitalist friends. With the ol' "veil of ignorance" - where all you knew was that you COULD make millions, even though there was a very slight change %-wise, most people would still choose a system where they could, instead of one that would limit income or be more egalitarian.

Definitely seems illogical, but if I had to guess, I think it's just part of the human spirit. We probably tend to think more of ourselves than reality would indicate.
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Perhaps, but I think it's more due to the American spirit rather than the human spirit. I don't think people in other countries are as deluded, nor do I get the impression they, in general, put as much importance on "getting rich" as Americans do. Enough seems to be, enough.
 
Darla said:
Why do goals and dreams have to revolve so much around "getting rich"? Why is having enough not enough of a goal? For me personally, life balance, and mental and emotional peace are more of a priority than "Getting rich". Which I have no desire to do. Everyone's definition of enough differs of course. Yearly vacation, or months long world travel? Coach or Gucci? Whatever.

The problem is Cawacko, that when an unemployed white male, feels his financial interests have more in common with those voting against UI extensions than those advocating and voting for them, then he has been deluded. And this isn't personal. I understand that your field has high unemployment and it's no reflection on you. But people who think like you do, and vote the way you do, really fuck their peers. It's just that they don't seem to get who their peers actually are.

Continuing rising economic inequality should do away with much of this problem, and perhaps then we'll see a change. I doubt younger men will be as apt to buy into the tales older generations have taken as gospel.
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You do bring up an interesting point in that the "30% believe they are in the top 1%" line made me think I wonder how many people would think they live top 1% lives (meaning what you said which includes many things, money being one but not the only criteria of it). I've gotten to meet quite a few people who have good sums of money and while I would be lying if I ever said I wouldn't want the money they have I wouldn't want to have their lives.

As far as policies go I just don't believe Democratic policies, no matter how well intended, work the best for the country as a whole compared to Republican ones. (Now that is a general statement. Not all Democratic policies are bad not all Republican policies are good. There is a mix there.)

As for income inequality it's grown as technology has grown and I don't see that changing. Going forward we will see even more automation and robots and global competition. Raising taxes isn't going to solve that challenge.
 
Darla said:
Um, no, but your conclusion does indicate you're not too good at reading for comprehension. I doubt that has anything to do with either your race or your marital status though.
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really? because from the article

- "the white male vote is controlled by nothing more than resentment, particularly resentment of women and people of color for spending the last few decades improving their lot in life. It’s not even a vote to restore lost levels of white male privilege, since I think white men must know that putting that genie back into the bottle isn’t going to work. At this point, then, voting Republican is just about punishment. You can’t stop a black guy from being your boss at work and your wife is never going to be Mrs. Cleaver, but you can make life a little harder for women and people of color in revenge for “stealing” the easy life of never having to compete with them that you feel entitled to. Also, MORE GUNS, because your phallic death totems are so soothing and help fill, temporarily, that desire to be a big man." -

says differently. so maybe you should translate for your writing impaired female author
 
cawacko said:
I have no idea what that means.
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With a tiny number of exceptions, only the children of the rich get rich, and only fools amongst the poor believe they can. The rich tell the mugs they (the mugs) can get rich while they pick their pockets and pay them peanuts, laughing all the way to the bank. Your grandparents didn't stand up to McCarthy, which is why you have no idea what this means.
 
SmarterthanYou said:
really? because from the article

- "the white male vote is controlled by nothing more than resentment, particularly resentment of women and people of color for spending the last few decades improving their lot in life. It’s not even a vote to restore lost levels of white male privilege, since I think white men must know that putting that genie back into the bottle isn’t going to work. At this point, then, voting Republican is just about punishment. You can’t stop a black guy from being your boss at work and your wife is never going to be Mrs. Cleaver, but you can make life a little harder for women and people of color in revenge for “stealing” the easy life of never having to compete with them that you feel entitled to. Also, MORE GUNS, because your phallic death totems are so soothing and help fill, temporarily, that desire to be a big man." -

says differently. so maybe you should translate for your writing impaired female author
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You didn't go to the link so you seem to have missed her opening, which appears to have actually been addressed to you:

Important disclaimer for the eager-to-be-butthurt: Obviously, not all men or even all married men or all white men or all men of a certain demographic. Republicans get the majority of white men, but they don’t get all of them. Calm the fuck down.
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Though I think she really covers you here:
Also, MORE GUNS, because your phallic death totems are so soothing and help fill, temporarily, that desire to be a big man.
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