Just one average Joe's opinion on why the markets can't cure helathcare

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Why markets can’t cure healthcare

Judging both from comments on this blog and from some of my mail, a significant number of Americans believe that the answer to our health care problems — indeed, the only answer — is to rely on the free market. Quite a few seem to believe that this view reflects the lessons of economic theory.

Not so. One of the most influential economic papers of the postwar era was Kenneth Arrow’s Uncertainty and the welfare economics of health care, which demonstrated — decisively, I and many others believe — that health care can’t be marketed like bread or TVs. Let me offer my own version of Arrow’s argument.

There are two strongly distinctive aspects of health care. One is that you don’t know when or whether you’ll need care — but if you do, the care can be extremely expensive. The big bucks are in triple coronary bypass surgery, not routine visits to the doctor’s office; and very, very few people can afford to pay major medical costs out of pocket.

This tells you right away that health care can’t be sold like bread. It must be largely paid for by some kind of insurance. And this in turn means that someone other than the patient ends up making decisions about what to buy. Consumer choice is nonsense when it comes to health care. And you can’t just trust insurance companies either — they’re not in business for their health, or yours.

This problem is made worse by the fact that actually paying for your health care is a loss from an insurers’ point of view — they actually refer to it as “medical costs.” This means both that insurers try to deny as many claims as possible, and that they try to avoid covering people who are actually likely to need care. Both of these strategies use a lot of resources, which is why private insurance has much higher administrative costs than single-payer systems. And since there’s a widespread sense that our fellow citizens should get the care we need — not everyone agrees, but most do — this means that private insurance basically spends a lot of money on socially destructive activities.

The second thing about health care is that it’s complicated, and you can’t rely on experience or comparison shopping. (”I hear they’ve got a real deal on stents over at St. Mary’s!”) That’s why doctors are supposed to follow an ethical code, why we expect more from them than from bakers or grocery store owners.

You could rely on a health maintenance organization to make the hard choices and do the cost management, and to some extent we do. But HMOs have been highly limited in their ability to achieve cost-effectiveness because people don’t trust them — they’re profit-making institutions, and your treatment is their cost.

Between those two factors, health care just doesn’t work as a standard market story.

All of this doesn’t necessarily mean that socialized medicine, or even single-payer, is the only way to go. There are a number of successful health-care systems, at least as measured by pretty good care much cheaper than here,and they are quite different from each other. There are, however, no exam ples of successful health care based on the principles of the free market, for one simple reason: in health care, the free market just doesn’t work. And peoplewho say that the market is the answer are flying in the face of both theory and overwhelming evidence.


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but health care has never been a free market.....doctors are licensed, hospitals need to get approval before opening up a new clinic.....there is an agency that decides if it is wasteful to have a new cardio unit within X miles of existing facilities......(no comment at the moment on whether that agency does a good job)......
 
The reality today is that almost every market is already dominated by a very few health plans, so much so that in most markets, there is very little market competition between health plans.

In 96% of markets, at least one insurer has share higher than 30%; in almost two-thirds of the markets, at one insurer has share greater than 50%.

If Republicans truly believed in competition, they'd support health care reform.
 
but health care has never been a free market.....doctors are licensed, hospitals need to get approval before opening up a new clinic.....there is an agency that decides if it is wasteful to have a new cardio unit within X miles of existing facilities......(no comment at the moment on whether that agency does a good job)......
Using that logic I can say the same thing about manufacturing and distributing chemicals. Chemical plants planing, construction and operation have to be reviewed, approved and permitted (i.e. licensed) before they can operate. There are government agencies that regulate safety, handling, storage, transportation and waste management of the chemicals. The operating facilities need to be built, designed and inspected by registered (i.e. licensed) Professional Engineers. So on that basis, by your logic, chemical manufacturing and sales has never been a free market.

In other words, you don't know what your talking about.
 
but health care has never been a free market.....doctors are licensed, hospitals need to get approval before opening up a new clinic.....there is an agency that decides if it is wasteful to have a new cardio unit within X miles of existing facilities......(no comment at the moment on whether that agency does a good job)......
True we've been having a battle here for the past years with two competing hospitals wanting to build in The Valley. The guv'mint will only let one of them build, and for every bed that they build, they have to take one out of their existing building. Go figure.
 
The reality today is that almost every market is already dominated by a very few health plans, so much so that in most markets, there is very little market competition between health plans.

In 96% of markets, at least one insurer has share higher than 30%; in almost two-thirds of the markets, at one insurer has share greater than 50%.

If Republicans truly believed in competition, they'd support health care reform.

But Obamas's "government option" does not stimulate legitimate competition. The government plan will always win because of it's state support, and ability to strongarm. This is not real "free market" competition.
 
Creating a public insurance alternative to private sector insurance is competition, which doesn't exist now.
 
Using that logic I can say the same thing about manufacturing and distributing chemicals. Chemical plants planing, construction and operation have to be reviewed, approved and permitted (i.e. licensed) before they can operate. There are government agencies that regulate safety, handling, storage, transportation and waste management of the chemicals. The operating facilities need to be built, designed and inspected by registered (i.e. licensed) Professional Engineers. So on that basis, by your logic, chemical manufacturing and sales has never been a free market.

In other words, you don't know what your talking about.

really?....in the chemical industry is there ever a determination that a company can't build another chemical plant because there are already enough chemical plants to serve the people withing a particular market radius and it would be harmful to the other chemical plants in the area?......
 
but health care has never been a free market.....doctors are licensed, hospitals need to get approval before opening up a new clinic.....there is an agency that decides if it is wasteful to have a new cardio unit within X miles of existing facilities......(no comment at the moment on whether that agency does a good job)......

What agency is that?
 
Creating a public insurance alternative to private sector insurance is competition, which doesn't exist now.

The government is always an unfair competitior, because it is also the regulator and also has virtually unlimited funds to win any price war.
 
Judging both from comments on this blog and from some of my mail, a significant number of Americans believe that the answer to our health care problems — indeed, the only answer — is to rely on the free markets.


I agree with these americans.



j/k. The crux of the problem is that you have tens of millions of rightwing americans, who have been trained like monkeys, to believe the zealotry and propoganda of the free market myth. A myth propogated, in the modern era, beginning with Ayn Rand, William F. Buckely, and culiminating with the election of useful dunces like Ronald Raygun and George Dumbya Bush. I have to tip my hat to the handful of billionaire plutocrats who pulled off this propoganda coup. Its pretty astonshing when you think about the fact that a few thousand millionaires and corporate overlords were able to fool tens of millions of americans with bright, shiny things. The extreme left, or true socialists never had this kind of propoganda machine.

The "free market" is good at manufacturing, marketing and selling consumer goods and services. Period.

Virtually anything else, which involves the public commons or the public welfare, should largely be divorced from the profit motive. Healthcare is one of those public commons. Or, at least healthcare delivery. Obviously, the free market is good at developing drugs for consumers on the back of publically funded core scientific research. But, why the eff we need to largely rely on for-profit, private insurance monopolies to act as middle men to pay doctor bills is ridiculous. If there's one God damned thing the government is really good at, it's paying bills. George Bush and John Boner have never expressed any concern, that I know of, for government financing and paying for their publically funded health insurance plans.
 
What agency is that?

for example...
By MEREDITH GOAD Staff Writer
Portland Press Herald (Maine)
06-01-1999
FRONT
Seven Maine hospitals want to build new cardiac catheterization laboratories,
where doctors do tests to determine if a patient's arteries are blocked.
The problem is the state may not need them.
A new report from the Maine Medical Assessment Foundation says more researchis needed before the state can adequately decide which communities truly needthe laboratories and how many of them there should be throughout the state.
"Our conclusion is we don't think that anybody knows if we need any more
labs, and we don't think anybody knows beyond that where any new labs should go," said Dr. Robert Keller, executive director ...

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-21820897.html

every state has the same thing....
 
The Maine Medical Assessment Foundation is a government agency?

According to the National Institutes of Health, MMAF is a nonprofit education and research organization.
 
The Maine Medical Assessment Foundation is a government agency?

According to the National Institutes of Health, MMAF is a nonprofit education and research organization.

dude.....read the quote...."before the state can adequately decide"...

how many "free market" situations are you aware of that the state decides whether or not you can open a new business.....
 
All businesses are regulated to some extent by government.

Why are you afraid of reform?

President Obama is committed to working with Congress to pass comprehensive health reform this year in order to control rising health care costs, guarantee choice of doctor, and assure high-quality, affordable health care for all Americans.

The Administration believes that comprehensive health reform should:

  1. Reduce long-term growth of health care costs for businesses and government
  2. Protect families from bankruptcy or debt because of health care costs
  3. Guarantee choice of doctors and health plans
  4. Invest in prevention and wellness
  5. Improve patient safety and quality of care
  6. Assure affordable, quality health coverage for all Americans
  7. Maintain coverage when you change or lose your job
  8. End barriers to coverage for people with pre-existing medical conditions
 
more examples...

Inova Health System has filed an application with Virginia health officials for a certificate of public need to build a hospital on Route 50 in Loudoun County.

The Certificate of Need (CON) program is a regulatory process that requires certain health care providers to obtain state approval before offering certain new or expanded services. For example, a certificate of need would be required if a hospital wishes to establish a comprehensive medical rehabilitation program.

The CON process is intended to help ensure that new services proposed by health care providers are needed for quality patient care within a particular region or community.

The program prevents unnecessary duplication of services by selecting the best proposal among competing applicants who wish to provide a particular health service. CON in Florida regulates hospice, skilled nursing, intermediate care for the developmentally disabled, the development of new hospitals and certain hospital services.

At least in Massachusetts, the introduction of certificate-of-need regulation coincided with but was not responsible for the conclusion of a major construction peak among nonteaching hospitals and the beginning of such a peak among teaching hospitals, greatly complicating the evaluation of actual CON effects.
 
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