Islam Was Not for Me
- Thread starter Alias
- Start date
Don't talk stupid...you sound like a fool......the second amendment does not by any stretch allow shooting people at all for any reason.....
What allows shooting people is the laws concerning self defense.....
I expect that from guys like you that wear "Depends".....So if accidents happen, correct your accidents...
Alias
Banned
Getting your propaganda from a pro-Islamic site without understanding what's in the Quran only shows you are cherry picking. I can do the same and I can show Sharia Law permits wife beating. Christianity forbids wife beating.
INTRODUCTION: THE STATUS OF THE WIFE IN ISLAM
One of the more controversial issues in Islam is the Quran’s authorization for husbands to beat disobedient wives. This is found in chapter 4, verse 34. Additional references on wife beating are found in Muhammad’s traditions (hadith), and biographical material (sira). Many people have criticized Islam because of this harsh sanction and many Muslims have written articles seeking to mollify or defend it.
In review of the actual teachings of the Quran, hadith, and sira, Islam is rightly criticized. This command is not only a harsh way to treat one’s wife, it portrays the degraded position of married women in Islam. It will be shown from the Quran, Hadith, Sira, and other Islamic writings that this "Islamic" wife beating is physical and painful.
Before we discuss wife beating, we must review Islam’s viewpoint of women and comprehend the position, or standing, it places her in with respect to her husband. This is fundamental in understanding the command to beat the disobedient wife. Islam views the woman as inferior to the man and as such, places her in a subservient and subordinate position in the marriage relationship. The man is allowed to discipline his wife because he is her superior and responsible for her. He has the authority to beat his wife if he feels she is being disobedient. Wife beating is merely the bad fruit of a bad theological root.
When I first began to study the topic I did not realize that an Islamic marriage is not equivalent to a Christian marriage. Its rules, roles, and requirements are different. In a Christian marriage the husband is given the role as head of the household and the wife is expected to submit to the husband’s leadership. However, she is his equal in terms of social status; she is not inferior to him. In Islam the husband is also the head of the marriage, additionally he is his wife’s manager. Women are considered to be "in-between a slave and free man". Slaves are not equal to their masters, rather they are subservient, managed, and controlled. Similarly, Muslim wives are inferior to their husbands and are managed and controlled. I am not saying that the wife is the husband’s slave, do not take this to an extreme.
Muhammad’s viewpoint of women was that they "lack self-control" and thus for their own good, and societies’ good, they must be subordinate to and managed by their husbands. Wives must obey. In an Islamic marriage when a man gives his bride a dowry he is accredited the right to manage his wife. By accepting his dowry a woman is giving her husband the right to her regulation.
Muhammad urged his followers to treat their wives well and the Quran’s chapter 4 is full of these sincere admonitions. He did not want to see them beaten without cause and he wanted good marriage relationships. However, his desires for happy marriages and kind treatment do not mitigate the authority he gave men over women or the position he ascribed to women. Wives are to be treated gently and kindly but are still under the man’s authority. If she persists in disobedience to his wishes he has the right, and the responsibility, to beat her to bring her into submission once again, and re-establish a happy marriage.
This article addresses the primary theme of Islamic wife beating and is based upon the teachings of the Quran, Hadith, Sira, and renowned Islamic scholars. Following the conclusion I have a series of appendices that discuss specific issues related to wife beating.
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THE QURAN ON WIFE BEATING
Below are 6 English versions of the Quran verse 4:34. This passage lays the foundation for wife beating. I provided all these to show their similarity. These translations are all from recognized scholars. I have corrected some archaic spelling. My comments are in [ ] type brackets.
Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God has gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God has of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness you have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourge them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great! Rodwell[1]
['Refractoriness' means hard or impossible to manage, stubbornly disobedient'].
Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme. Dawood[2]
Men are in charge of women, because Allah has made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah has guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great. Pickthall[3]
Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great. Arberry[4]
Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great. Shakir[5]
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all). Ali[6]
COMMENT ON 4:34
The introduction emphasized the husband’s superiority over the wife. 4:34 starts by establishing that precedent. The beginning states: men are "superior", men have "authority", men are "in charge", etc. Muhammad placed the man over the wife; he is her custodian and she obeys him. Then the Quran proceeds to lay out their respective roles, then lists a progression of steps to be followed when dealing with a rebellious wife:
admonish them: The husband is to verbally admonish her
send them to beds apart: If that fails the husband is to sexually desert his wife
beat them: If both measures above fail the husband is commanded to beat his wife.
The husband, as the manager, increases the pressure on his wife to bring her into obedience to him. If beating her doesn’t work they will move towards divorce. (Note that obedience to her husband is not required if he orders her to do something sinful, causes her physical pain, or something she is incapable of doing).
[NOTE: I placed Ali's version last because I comment on his, (and Muhammad Asad’s) translation and editing of the Quran in Appendix 1].
HISTORICAL BACKGROUND ON THE QURAN, 4:34
The reason (asbab al-nuzul) behind the "revelation" is detailed by various Muslim scholars. The quote below comes from Razi's commentary, "At-Tafsir al-Kabir," on 4:34
"A women complained to Muhammad that her husband slapped her on the face, (which was still marked by the slap). At first the prophet said to her: "Get even with him", but then added: "Wait until I think about it". Later on, Allah supposedly revealed 4:34 to Muhammad, after which the prophet said: "We wanted one thing but Allah wanted another, and what Allah wanted is best."[7]
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THE TRADITIONS (HADITH)
The Hadith contains more information on wife beating in the early Islamic community. The Hadith illustrate facets of the husband & wife relationship and mention or depict physical violence against the wife. I will quote several of these to demonstrate the wife’s lower position in the marriage and the exact type of wife beating that occurred in Muhammad’s time, with his approval. In some cases due to the length I will only quote relevant portions of a hadith.
Here is a Hadith from Bukhari[8], vol. 7, # 715, that details Islamic wife beating:
"Narrated Ikrima: 'Rifaa divorced his wife whereupon Abdur-Rahman married her. Aisha said that the lady came wearing a green veil and complained to her (Aisha) and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating. It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's messenger came, Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes! When Abdur-Rahman heard that his wife had gone to the prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him, but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment. Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's messenger! She has told a lie. I am very strong and can satisfy her, but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifaa." Allah's messenger said to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifaa unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." The prophet saw two boys with Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that Abdur-Rahman said, "Yes." The prophet said, "You claim what you claim (that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow.""
Let's note several items from this Hadith.
1) A woman was beaten by her husband because of marriage discord. The women did not commit any illegal sexual act. She was beaten and bruised because her husband said she was "disobedient" and he thought she wanted to go back to her former husband.
2) Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!
The woman was badly bruised. Her skin was green. Aisha acknowledged that the Muslim women were suffering (from being beaten) more than the non-Muslim women. Muslims today proclaim that Islam gave women rights but Aisha, the "mother of the believers" said otherwise! She said that the Pagan women were treated better!
3) Muhammad did not rebuke the man for beating his wife. In fact, he reproached the women for saying Rahman was impotent. Even though she was hurt Muhammad accepted her bruises and beating because to Muhammad it was not abuse. In Muhammad’s eyes she deserved the beating.
Following are a number of various Hadith relative to wife beating. Again, I have edited several of these because of length.
http://answering-islam.org/Silas/wife-beating.htm
christiefan915
Catalyst
Sorry, I understand what's in the Qur'an because I've read it. Have you?
My site was the Muslim response to the falsehoods of "Silas".
christiefan915
Catalyst
Please. People have the right to own guns. People kill each other daily with those guns, and all of those killings are NOT done in self defense.
As far as the Qur'an, why don't you take a crack at explaining the quotes against beating that I cited in post 54?
I know you don't get that the Qur'an, like the old and new testaments, was written in a patriarchal era when all women were considered property, or at the very least, not on an equal footing with men. Different times, different culture, different practices. And if you think the OT doesn't hold negative views of women, think again. That doesn't mean I think all Jewish men treat their wives as women were treated in the OT.
Women as sexual predators:
Genesis 19:30-36: This passage describes how Lot's two daughters made their father drunk with wine on two successive nights. Each daughter committed incest with her father, and became pregnant. Their two sons, Moab and Ben-Ammi became the patriarchs of the Moabite and Ammonite people, who were two of Israel's most serious foes.
bullet In Judges 16, Delilah seduced Samson in order to find out the secret of his great strength. This ultimately led to Samson's death.
1 Kings 11 describes how Solomon's many foreign wives and concubines convinced him to worship other Gods and build Pagan temples. This was believed to have led to his downfall.
Women as deceitful and untrustworthy:
Genesis 39:7-20: Potiphar was an official in the court of the Pharaoh. His wife unsuccessfully attempted to seduce Joseph. She later falsely accused him of attempting to rape her, and had him arrested.
Women singled out for special punishment:
Deuteronomy 22:13-21: A bride who had been presented as a virgin, and who could not be proven to be one, was to be stoned to death by the men of her village. Verse 21 says: "Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you." The woman would be allowed to live if her previous owner --her husband -- could produce evidence in the form of blood caused by her hymen breaking when her husband first engaged in sexual intercourse with her. Of course, this would not be much of a defense if she happened to have been born without a hymen or if it broken broken because of heavy exercise. There appears to have been no similar penalty for men who had engaged in consensual pre-marital sexual activity.
Numbers 5:17-31 "Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water....." This passage describes the action that a husband could take if he suspected that his wife had engaged in an adulterous relationship. He would take her to the tabernacle, where the priest would make a magical drink consisting of holy water and sweepings from the tabernacle floor. He would have the woman drink the water while he recited a curse on her. The curse would state that her abdomen would swell and her thigh waste away if she had committed adultery. In that era when medical treatment was almost unknown, the treatment would probably have resulted in her death. If she were pregnant at this time, the curse would certainly induce an abortion. There was no similar magical test that a woman could require her husband to take if she suspected him of adultery.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ofe_bibl1.htm
Alias
Banned
My site was the Christian response to muslim falsehoods. Do you agree with this passage of scripture from the Quran?
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whom part you fear disloyalty and ill conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance) for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all)." Ali[6]
Alias
Banned
You're confused. Christians do not live under OT law. The Christian Church lives under the New Testament. Find us some scriptures in the NT that support wife beating. You can also show us where the NT treats women like property. Good luck.
Nowhere in the Second Amendment does it give anyone the right to shoot another, it only gives one the right to own a gun.....period....case closed....anything else is irrelevant.....
And being the Bible into the debate is also irrelevant.....now if you've got a video of a minister or priest explaining how to beat you wife, I'd be glad to condemn both religions.....
You're just making a further ass of yourself.....you've been schooled again by me.....live with it.....
Here is the expert on the Islamic religion.......I'd think he knows more about the Qur'an than you cheerypicking quotes.
If you need more experts like him, I'll post you a few more....
W
WinterBorn
Guest
And my agreeing with the First Amendment does not mean I advocate wife beating. But you had no problem posting that it did.
My post was sarcastic.
BTW, did you ever find that post that showed me defending Islam or Sharia Law
W
WinterBorn
Guest
Refute what you posted?? You posted all sorts of bullshit, and I called you on it.
How about answer that challenge?