Frustrations of Being a Jewish Republican

[Immanuel]

Yea moderates to tend to get beat up on in politics. They tend to be viewed as wishy washy fence stradlers trying to placate all sides but never actually taking a stand on anything. Who was it that said the only thing you find in the middle of the road is a dead skunk and a moderate?

The question then is which party is more guilty of extremism? Republicans have to bite the bullet there. The immoral war in Iraq. Regressive economic policies. Hostile antipathy towards governance, Anti-intellectualism, Racism. No Immie, you cannot argue that the present Democratic party is as guilty of extremism as the Republicans are. That just won't hold water. Not with a person who left the Republican party after 20+ years due to its extremist leaders and policies.

Hell even the fact that traditional conservatives as your self are regretting your association with the reactionary right wing of the party is a very strong sign of just how far from the center the the Republican party has gone.

I may not be as traditionally conservative as you think... or even that I think. To be quite honest, my idea of conservative has nothing to do with the idea of the compassionate conservatism of one George W. Bush. I believe in many things that the liberals push albeit not in the way that they do.

I am for the idea of Welfare although I believe it should be designed to be temporary (except in extreme circumstances) and a hand up not a hand out. Honestly, I think most people liberal and conservative agree with that.

I am for the idea of Social Security. However, I believe that it needs to be redesigned. I do believe in the idea of privatizing Social Security, because I believe even a person with an IQ of 65 can do a better job managing their retirement plan than the government does.

I am opposed to abortion almost stringently. That is the biggest reason I refuse to call myself a liberal. However, I recognize that there are some circumstances where even I would bite my tongue if I had to make a statement about it. Nor, do I believe that the government would be able to stop abortions by banning them. I believe we should be working to end abortion by any means necessary whether that be banning entirely, regulating or simply changing the hearts of human beings. Unfortunately, despite the fact that most people do not like the idea of abortion, politicians have found it to be a dividing issue in America and they play upon that.

I think some drugs should be legalized, sold and taxed by the government. I think the war on drugs is an abstract failure and a terrible cost of not only dollars but human life as well.

I am not opposed to my taxes being spent for social programs. But, I don't think we should be giving in such as way as to encourage people to strive to better themselves.

I do, however, believe that our government has gotten to big and that it is run by corrupt people who are only in their positions because of the power it gives them. I believe they are destroying this country.

I believe that the markets will generally regulate themselves and that the economy is going to move up and down regardless of what we do. That is not to say that we can't affect it with things like the stimulus bill but eventually just like in physics the economy will come down and then rise again. I think the President's stimulus plan is a recipe for disaster not to mention political pork but I also realize that they need to do something to help.

I was for the war up until and not a moment after the capture of Saddam Hussein. I believed him to be an evil man and a danger not only to the U.S. but to the world as well. From the moment it was announced he was caught, I was saying it was time to change the method that we prosecuted the war on terrorism.

As for Democrats not being as extreme as the White Christian conservatives you speak of, I think you are blind in one eye, most likely the left. It may seem that way to you at the moment but that is because the left has found itself on top recently. They can't afford to be extreme for the time being, but trust me, they are just as extreme as their counterparts on the right and when things begin to fall apart as they inevitably do, the left wing extremist will make themselves visible again.

Liberals are just as guilty of extremism as Conservatives.

I believe the U.S. of A. is in a world of hurt. They say that every civilization fails. I am afraid we are on that track. I am afraid that I will live to see the end of this great nation thanks to the extremists on both sides of the American Political Spectrum.

Immie

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Most Democrats may be centrist, but their leadership is certainly not.

Surveys have revealed that 35% of Americans consider themselves to be conservative. Less than 20% are liberal, while the remainder are moderate/centrist. The GOP will have no problem at all returning to power, provided they return to their classical conservative roots.

Republicans don't win by being "moderate." Republicans win when they campaign on a classical conservative platform, and they win by a landslide. You admitted to voting for Ronald Reagan in '80 and '84 even though you are a centrist. You are demonstrating my point.

I'm sorry but you're wrong. In a relative sense Democratic leadership may appear to be far left of Republican leadership but my friend, dead center is a looooooong far way to the left of Republican leadership.

You're deluding your self if you believe that Republican leadership is presently, #1 Traditional Conservatives. They are not. They are political reactionaries and #2 That when they run as traditional conserviatives they win by landslides.

Let us not Forget that George W Bush was an accidental President. That is he was an anomaly. He's one of those rare Presidents that lost the popular vote but won the electoral vote by the slimist of margins and by intervention from SCOTUS. His win against Kerry, a weak candidate, was by a very slim margin too. So that argument doesn't hold water. Regain may have won by electoral landslides but not by popular one. The last Republican to win a truely popular vote landslide was Eisenhower a moderate...ok, you may argue that it was Nixon, also a center right moderate.

Voting for Reagan doesn't really prove your point either. One of the huge big differences between Reagan and the current Republican leadership was his ability to reach across the aisle and differences and work with those whom he disagreed with nor does it account that maybe I made a mistake in voting for Reagan (I say that for the sake of argument) as subsequently I have learned that many of Reagan's policies were either misguided or just plain wrong (Supply Side Economics, an economic system every bit as much a failure as socialism, would be an example. I bought into it. I was wrong.). My point being here is that many of the failed policies of George W. Bush were policies that Reagan embraced. Maybe it just took time to prove these policies inadequate or wrong. Maybe it just wasn't Bush's incompetence alone? Let us not forget that Obama defeated a tradtional conservative, in John McCain ,in an electoral landslide (though a fairly close election by popular vote).

At present I see a delightful degree of moderation and more importantly objectivity coming from the Obama administration. It gives me great hope for him (though time will tell as it is certainly way to early). I see him reversing the trend of regresive economic policy, though under the current circumstances he may have had no choice. I see him opening diplomatic channels and having dialogues with nations we disagree with. I see an ending of this "go it alone cause who the hell needs you." unilateral arrogance of the past administrations foreign policy. I see him rejecting torture and a violation of our traditional support for human rights (but to be fair, so did John McCain.). I see him appointing qualified and competent Republicans to important cabinet positions. In short, I see real strong evidence of Democratic leadership from the center and little from the social welfare far left of the party.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I may not be as traditionally conservative as you think... or even that I think. To be quite honest, my idea of conservative has nothing to do with the idea of the compassionate conservatism of one George W. Bush. I believe in many things that the liberals push albeit not in the way that they do.

I am for the idea of Welfare although I believe it should be designed to be temporary (except in extreme circumstances) and a hand up not a hand out. Honestly, I think most people liberal and conservative agree with that.

I am for the idea of Social Security. However, I believe that it needs to be redesigned. I do believe in the idea of privatizing Social Security, because I believe even a person with an IQ of 65 can do a better job managing their retirement plan than the government does.

I am opposed to abortion almost stringently. That is the biggest reason I refuse to call myself a liberal. However, I recognize that there are some circumstances where even I would bite my tongue if I had to make a statement about it. Nor, do I believe that the government would be able to stop abortions by banning them. I believe we should be working to end abortion by any means necessary whether that be banning entirely, regulating or simply changing the hearts of human beings. Unfortunately, despite the fact that most people do not like the idea of abortion, politicians have found it to be a dividing issue in America and they play upon that.

I think some drugs should be legalized, sold and taxed by the government. I think the war on drugs is an abstract failure and a terrible cost of not only dollars but human life as well.

I am not opposed to my taxes being spent for social programs. But, I don't think we should be giving in such as way as to encourage people to strive to better themselves.

I do, however, believe that our government has gotten to big and that it is run by corrupt people who are only in their positions because of the power it gives them. I believe they are destroying this country.

I believe that the markets will generally regulate themselves and that the economy is going to move up and down regardless of what we do. That is not to say that we can't affect it with things like the stimulus bill but eventually just like in physics the economy will come down and then rise again. I think the President's stimulus plan is a recipe for disaster not to mention political pork but I also realize that they need to do something to help.

I was for the war up until and not a moment after the capture of Saddam Hussein. I believed him to be an evil man and a danger not only to the U.S. but to the world as well. From the moment it was announced he was caught, I was saying it was time to change the method that we prosecuted the war on terrorism.

As for Democrats not being as extreme as the White Christian conservatives you speak of, I think you are blind in one eye, most likely the left. It may seem that way to you at the moment but that is because the left has found itself on top recently. They can't afford to be extreme for the time being, but trust me, they are just as extreme as their counterparts on the right and when things begin to fall apart as they inevitably do, the left wing extremist will make themselves visible again.

Liberals are just as guilty of extremism as Conservatives.

I believe the U.S. of A. is in a world of hurt. They say that every civilization fails. I am afraid we are on that track. I am afraid that I will live to see the end of this great nation thanks to the extremists on both sides of the American Political Spectrum.

Immie

Liberals have indeed been guilty of extremism. Why some of them were even revolutionaries!

I hate these litmus test that determine whether you fit one political paradigm or another mainly because I reject both the litmus tests and the paradigms.

To me conservatism means supporting the status quo. That is that they believe our basic tradtional system of governance is fundamentally a good system and that they reject change for the sake of change or because they believe that change would not be in their (our) best interest. Obviously that's not how those in the political right see conservatism.

You do make a great point that I must reinforce here in that you too reject being pidgeon holed into some ideology.

And that's a problem with both parties, they both want to do this. The easier to manipulate us. When I say "I'm a moderate" I am really saying that I am not an ideologue and I'll do what I think is correct and I don't care if it's called liberal or conservative or left or right. I have views that are intensly conservative (as I've just defined conservative) and I have views that are very liberal. On the whole and in balance I'm probably a bit right of center which, by Rush Limbaughs lights makes me a bleeding heart commie pinko liberal.

 

[Immanuel]

Liberals have indeed been guilty of extremism. Why some of them were even revolutionaries!

I hate these litmus test that determine whether you fit one political paradigm or another mainly because I reject both the litmus tests and the paradigms.

To me conservatism means supporting the status quo. That is that they believe our basic tradtional system of governance is fundamentally a good system and that they reject change for the sake of change or because they believe that change would not be in their (our) best interest. Obviously that's not how those in the political right see conservatism.

You do make a great point that I must reinforce here in that you too reject being pidgeon holed into some ideology.

And that's a problem with both parties, they both want to do this. The easier to manipulate us. When I say "I'm a moderate" I am really saying that I am not an ideologue and I'll do what I think is correct and I don't care if it's called liberal or conservative or left or right. I have views that are intensly conservative (as I've just defined conservative) and I have views that are very liberal. On the whole and in balance I'm probably a bit right of center which, by Rush Limbaughs lights makes me a bleeding heart commie pinko liberal.

We all KNOW you are a bleeding heart commie pinko liberal!

I look at conservatives as being the sea anchor, and liberals as being the sails of the ship.

Sea Anchor:

A sea anchor, used to stabilize a boat in heavy weather, anchors not to the sea floor but to the water itself, as a kind of brake. Sea anchors are known by a number of names, such as drift anchor, drift sock, para-anchor, and boat brakes. These all function the same way, by pulling large amounts of water along as the boat moves, and they are all used to counter the effects of high winds. Similar in design and use to the sea anchor is the relatively smaller drogue.

The conservatives work to stabilize the country and the liberals work to move it forward both are necessary to keep the country progressing, but in varying amounts depending on the times.

Immie

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Thank you for not including me in that list.

But, I just don't understand how you and WM can say that the Democrats are the party of moderates. The Democrats are just as extreme as today's Republicans. They did not win this last election because they, or President Obama were moderate. They won it because George Bush was a total screw up and the fact that Republicans (I'm guilty as charged) put him in the White House.

Moderation is a trait that politicians only put up with rather than relish.

If you are a moderate, they will gladly take your vote, but they are not going to woo you because they know that today, you might vote for them, tomorrow you may very well vote against them.

Immie

Mostly I was referencing poll numbers:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2009/01/the_real_electorate_moderate_a.html

The biggest group of Democrats is moderates, the biggest group of Republicans is conservatives. Hell, 5% of voters are conservative Democrats while just 1% are liberal Republicans. The Democrats ARE the American moderate party. We liberals mainly just tag along because we know we'd both get crushed if we vote-split. That's one of the biggest differences between Democrats and Republicans - the Republicans are ideologically narrow, while the Democrats are catch-all. If the Democrats ran the country in single-party rule they would divide against themselves half the time because the caucus is so chaotic.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

Yes I remember fondly Goldwater's landslide victory after a long campaign of just that.

Reagan won mostly by sweeping the white vote. He won it by a rather signifigant margin. But these days, the Republicans would have to win upwards of 60% of the white vote to win on their backs alone, and it's going to get much, much worse in the future. Let's face it - the Republicans are never going to win whites that big. To survive in the future, the Republicans are going to have to do some significant re branding, otherwise we're headed to a "stunted" two-party system, where the Republicans can just provide token opposition from their bastion in the south (Canada and the Liberals operated like this mostly uninterrupted for about a century).

 

[Mott the Hoople]

We all KNOW you are a bleeding heart commie pinko liberal!

I look at conservatives as being the sea anchor, and liberals as being the sails of the ship.

Sea Anchor:



The conservatives work to stabilize the country and the liberals work to move it forward both are necessary to keep the country progressing, but in varying amounts depending on the times.

Immie

A very interesting paradigm Immie.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Mostly I was referencing poll numbers:

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2009/01/the_real_electorate_moderate_a.html

The biggest group of Democrats is moderates, the biggest group of Republicans is conservatives. Hell, 5% of voters are conservative Democrats while just 1% are liberal Republicans. The Democrats ARE the American moderate party. We liberals mainly just tag along because we know we'd both get crushed if we vote-split. That's one of the biggest differences between Democrats and Republicans - the Republicans are ideologically narrow, while the Democrats are catch-all. If the Democrats ran the country in single-party rule they would divide against themselves half the time because the caucus is so chaotic.

That's a shrewd observation and probably true. It harkens to the comment of the great American humorist Will Rogers who said "I belong to no organized political party. I"m a democrat."