Do republicans really want to win?

[Teflon Don]

The Republican Party has just been given a gift with two weeks to go in this election. Will they take it? They can gain seats in the Senate and the House by hanging this around every member of the democrat party running for office

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/302554-obamacare-hikes-leave-dems-exposed

 

[sear]

"The Republican Party has just been given a gift with two weeks to go"

a) News Flash:
Election day for Democrats is the same day as election day for Republicans.
So if it's a gift for the Republicans, it's an equal gift for the Democrats.

b) The blame for this GOP train-wreck belongs to Republican primary voters.

- I understand the frustration.
- I understand the Throw The Bums Out sentiment which has motivated it.
- I understand how massively destructive 8 years of the GWB administration has been to the U.S. as a whole *.

There's no denying the problem.

President Trump is NOT the solution.

* As but one example:
During the 8 years of the GWB administration, UBL killed ~3k innocent Americans, rendering him #1 on the FBI's 10 most wanted list.
During those same 8 years, President GWB sent over 4K U.S. military troops to their deaths in Iraq, based on a lie.
So the U.S. president killed more innocent Americans during those 8 years than the worst terrorist mastermind of that era; and UBL gets a bullet in the forehead, and GWB gets a pension, and continuing Secret Service protection?!

 

[anatta]

^ you need to update past UBL... it's a nice Clinton talking point, but not germane with the growth of ISIS and the AQ affiliates

 

[tsuke]

a) News Flash:
Election day for Democrats is the same day as election day for Republicans.
So if it's a gift for the Republicans, it's an equal gift for the Democrats.

b) The blame for this GOP train-wreck belongs to Republican primary voters.

- I understand the frustration.
- I understand the Throw The Bums Out sentiment which has motivated it.
- I understand how massively destructive 8 years of the GWB administration has been to the U.S. as a whole *.

There's no denying the problem.

President Trump is NOT the solution.

* As but one example:
During the 8 years of the GWB administration, UBL killed ~3k innocent Americans, rendering him #1 on the FBI's 10 most wanted list.
During those same 8 years, President GWB sent over 4K U.S. military troops to their deaths in Iraq, based on a lie.
So the U.S. president killed more innocent Americans during those 8 years than the worst terrorist mastermind of that era; and UBL gets a bullet in the forehead, and GWB gets a pension, and continuing Secret Service protection?!

You can blame other stuff for obstruction but how do you get an obstruction claim on obamacare when you had a filibuster proof majority on both houses?

 

[sear]

"you need to update past UBL..." #3

Meaning:
discussion of WWII is obsolete, because of the U.S. police action in Korea?

"it's a nice Clinton talking point, but"

It was U.S. President Bush (younger) that declared with Texas swagger, UBL "Wanted dead or alive".
But it was just talk.
Bush never got closer to UBL than Tora Bora, and foolishly allowed UBL to escape by ceding Tora Bora perimeter security to native mercenaries. BUFFOON !!

"not germane"

If you'd like to cite an example of a Republican doing even more harm to the U.S. than President GWB, please do.
Candidly, I believe killing off over 4,000 innocent Americans based upon lies is bad enough.

And fyi
it was President Obama that authorized the UBL hit in Abadabad.

Not sure what mental / logical connection you perceive in Do republicans really want to win?

"Clinton" isn't a Republican.
The Republican candidate for president is named "Trump".

 

[sear]

PS #4

" you had a filibuster proof majority on both houses? "

a) I'm not a legislator, so I had no such thing.

b) iirc in 2009 Obama faced an adversarial, obstructionist Republican party, with the slimmest of voting majority in the senate.

BUT !!

However it may have looked on paper, not all of those (60?) Obama had to work with reliably voted Democrat.
For example iirc there was at least one Independent in the senate at that time.

So though you seem to be implying Obama had, however briefly, absolute legislative power,
the reality is, it was not so; things were more complicated than that.

 

[anatta]

Meaning:
discussion of WWII is obsolete, because of the U.S. police action in Korea?

It was U.S. President Bush (younger) that declared with Texas swagger, UBL "Wanted dead or alive".
But it was just talk.
Bush never got closer to UBL than Tora Bora, and foolishly allowed UBL to escape by ceding Tora Bora perimeter security to native mercenaries. BUFFOON !!

If you'd like to cite an example of a Republican doing even more harm to the U.S. than President GWB, please do.
Candidly, I believe killing off over 4,000 innocent Americans based upon lies is bad enough.

And fyi
it was President Obama that authorized the UBL hit in Abadabad.

Not sure what mental / logical connection you perceive in Do republicans really want to win?

"Clinton" isn't a Republican.
The Republican candidate for president is named "Trump".

simply saying what I did. UBL is a Clinton talking point. we're way past that in the Long War against terrorism.
Clinton bought us ISIS in Libya; Obama got us basically marginalized in the middle east, after allowing ISIS to metastisize across Iraq from Syria

Bush was the grand screw up, but the Dems have nothing to crow about

 

[sear]

" we're way past that in the Long War against terrorism. " a #7

So claim you; utterly groundlessly.

"Obama got us basically marginalized in the middle east" #7

The news from there is grim, depressing. I'll candidly grant you that.

BUT !!

Do you have any PROOF that President anatta Middle East foreign policy would be substantially better?

44444444444444444444444

U.S. President Bush (younger) lied U.S. into war on premise it was a war of necessity, when it was in retrospect clearly a war of choice.



We lost THOUSANDS as a result.

Obama exercised caution, and may have erred on the opposite extreme.

Bush threw out the tyrant from Iraq. Saddam hung by the neck.

Obama threw out Libya's Malomar Quadaffy, terminated on the battlefield by agents the U.S. supported.

In BOTH cases the power vacuum that resulted has created more problems than it solved.

"Obama got us basically marginalized in the middle east" #7

It's a distinctly partisan claim.

What Republican policy would have produced a substantially different outcome?

Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman John McCain (R-AZ) pleaded with Obama to arm the Syrian rebels.
In retrospect McCain may have been right.

BUT !!

It's an uncontrolled experiment. We can't know that. It might have been worse.

I agree!

The Western world is awash with terrorist woes:

- al Qaida
- Taliban
- Boko Haram
- ISIL
- among others.

But pointing the bony finger of self-righteous indignation at the guy in charge, and blaming it all on him is simplistic. Reality is a bit more complicated than that.

 

[BRUTALITOPS]

obamacare is the biggest fucking joke.

 

[sear]

#9

Perhaps you haven't heard the one about the whale in tennis shoes.

 

[anatta]

So claim you; utterly groundlessly.

do you think we have turned any corner on global Islamic terrorism??
It's not called the "Long War"for no reason

http://www.longwarjournal.org/

Do you have any PROOF that President anatta Middle East foreign policy would be substantially better?

considering I was screaming about ISIS's advance as Iraqi cities went under their control -yes.
I was also very much against the Libyan war of 2011 -which is the basis for the Libyan Civil War 2014 to present.
I keep a blog,if you are interested. Libyan Civil War 2014 ~ Present

U.S. President Bush (younger) lied U.S. into war on premise it was a war of necessity, when it was in retrospect clearly a war of choice.

the same for Libya.

Obama exercised caution, and may have erred on the opposite extreme.

Obama put sanctions on the el-Sisi government for no reason - other then it was a junta government (Congress didn't call for sanctions).
Itleft the door wide open for Putin to move in with weapon sales/nuclear contracts/agricultural deals.
It got so bad between Obama that el-Sisis actually went toMoscow where he toasted the "new relationship" between Russia and Egypt.

Bush threw out the tyrant from Iraq. Saddam hung by the neck.

Obama threw out Libya's Malomar Quadaffy, terminated on the battlefield by agents the U.S. supported.

In BOTH cases the power vacuum that resulted has created more problems than it solved.

yes that's the obvious take away.
The other part is we hired Ansar al-Sharia to guard Stevens in Bengazi. The other part is Qadaffi was a reliable allie on the War on Terror.
The other part is this was all orchestrated by Hillary.
She owns Libya,and she voted for Iraq - she wanted to arm 'Syrian rebels' - she never learns .

It's a distinctly partisan claim.

What Republican policy would have produced a substantially different outcome?

Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman John McCain (R-AZ) pleaded with Obama to arm the Syrian rebels.
In retrospect McCain may have been right.

any arms to Syria were quickly glommed up by the Islamists.
Obama DID arm the FSA by training them in Jordan and giving them TOW missiles ( which were quikly seized by al-Nusra)

BUT !!

It's an uncontrolled experiment. We can't know that. It might have been worse.

I agree!

The Western world is awash with terrorist woes:

- al Qaida
- Taliban
- Boko Haram
- ISIL
- among others.

But pointing the bony finger of self-righteous indignation at the guy in charge, and blaming it all on him is simplistic. Reality is a bit more complicated than that.

the president is commander in chief. You can't blame Bush, and then not blame Obama -which is what you are doing here.

 

[sear]

"do you think we have turned any corner on global Islamic terrorism??"

Obama got UBL.
I suppose that qualifies as turning "any corner on global Islamic terrorism".

But I'm not sure that's the relevant metric.

My Dad was born in 1913. He lived through the Great Depression. But I don't blame him for CAUSING the Great Depression!

"Don't find fault, find a remedy." - Henry Ford (1863-1947)

#11

"the same for Libya."

I don't think so.

Reagan, the Republican demigod ran a bombing raid against Quadaffy. Malomar survived.
Obama simply finished the job (as he did w/ Bush / UBL ["wanted dead or alive"]).

That's what Democrats do; among other things. The clean up the messes / unfinished business left by Republicans.

"Obama put sanctions on"

The U.S. waged hot War in Korea and Vietnam, and lost.

The U.S. waged Cold War against the Soviets, and won.

Obama is a student of history.
Obama prefers economic sanctions to spilling U.S. blood on foreign soil.
As a U.S. military veteran, I can't tell you how deeply grateful to him I am for that.

"You can't blame Bush, and then not blame Obama -which is what you are doing here."

I almost entirely agree.

The perhaps seemingly minor, but pivotal error in your assessment is:

- Bush lied to take gross affirmative action to address a threat that did not exist.

- I'm not aware of any gross lies Obama told to justify his inaction.

"Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt, that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised."
U.S. President Bush (the younger) televised address to the U.S. March 17th, 2003

That could not POSSIBLY be true!!

And if you have as much investigative experience as I do you will understand:
"motive" is ALWAYS a consideration in such matters.

And U.S. President Bush (younger) had a motive for wanting to remove Saddam from power: a simple Bush family vendetta.

That Saddam made a failed assassination attempt on the elder President Bush after Bush left office is well acknowledged.

The younger President Bush even cited it explicitly as part of his casus belli he presented to the U.N. General Assembly.

"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be." Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), U.S. president. Letter, 12 June 1815

 

[anatta]

Obama got UBL.
I suppose that qualifies as turning "any corner on global Islamic terrorism".

it doesn't. ask yourself what killing UBL accomplished other then making us feel good.
AQ Core ( Zawahiri etc. in Pakistan) is long past being concerned with UBL

But I'm not sure that's the relevant metric.

it relevant in that it is pointless

My Dad was born in 1913. He lived through the Great Depression. But I don't blame him for CAUSING the Great Depression!

#11

I don't think so.

.....

Reagan, the Republican demigod ran a bombing raid against Quadaffy. Malomar survived.
Obama simply finished the job (as he did w/ Bush / UBL ["wanted dead or alive"]).

That's what Democrats do; among other things. The clean up the messes / unfinished business left by Republicans.

oh jesus...
what did Reagan accomplish? He got Qadaffi to get rid of any nuclear materials -it turned Qaddafi away from Islamists-
to becoming a valuable partner wit the west..

So much so your hated Bush established a strategic relationship to rid east Africa from jihadists.
Did you know we had CIA and the Brits had SAS in Libya under Qadaffi?
Do you know we (US) are RIGHT NOW bombing Libya again? and we have put the SAS and US Special forces back in?
The problem is Libya is now a fractured terrorist state - it has 3 governments

Compare that to the relationship Bush and Qaddafi had!! Hell even Obama shook Qaddafi's hand at the G-8

with all due respect..you have enormous gaps in your understanding of the Libyan war and it's aftermath.
read thru my blog..I try to make it interesting with illustrations

The U.S. waged hot War in Korea and Vietnam, and lost.

The U.S. waged Cold War against the Soviets, and won.

Obama is a student of history.
Obama prefers economic sanctions to spilling U.S. blood on foreign soil.
As a U.S. military veteran, I can't tell you how deeply grateful to him I am for that.

ok, but Obama is either prosecuting worthess wars
or being plated by Putin. He's a misfit on virtually every aspect of foreign policy.,with the possible exception of the Asian pivot which never really happened. The really, really bad thing is Hillary's judgement is at least as bad going forward.

I almost entirely agree.

The perhaps seemingly minor, but pivotal error in your assessment is:

- Bush lied to take gross affirmative action to address a threat that did not exist.

- I'm not aware of any gross lies Obama told to justify his inaction.

That could not POSSIBLY be true!!

And if you have as much investigative experience as I do you will understand:
"motive" is ALWAYS a consideration in such matters.

And U.S. President Bush (younger) had a motive for wanting to remove Saddam from power: a simple Bush family vendetta.

That Saddam made a failed assassination attempt on the elder President Bush after Bush left office is well acknowledged.

The younger President Bush even cited it explicitly as part of his casus belli he presented to the U.N. General Assembly.

to the bolded.
The entire Libyan war was based on lies of "responsibiity to protect" which was bogus. Hilary bit into it
and became the leading US advocate to Obama. Even the NYTimes has figured that much out.

Hillary Clinton,
‘Smart Power’
and a
Dictator’s Fall

The president was wary. The secretary
of state was persuasive. But the ouster
of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi left Libya
a failed state and a terrorist haven.


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/us/politics/hillary-clinton-libya.html?_r=0

 

[sear]

"it doesn't" #13

Possibly not.
But neither of us can know that for certain.

For one example, the UBL termination could discourage others from accepting leadership terrorist roles.



http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/images/attachement/jpg/site1/20090710/0013729e48090bc1321e37.jpg

big deal



http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/576154476a119675c58759d6ffb6dee657af2aa.jpg

"you have enormous gaps in your understanding"

Perhaps.
But not likely.
Either way, how would you know? I made a post at a recreational BBS, not a scholarly exposé for commercial publication.
Just because I didn't post it doesn't mean I don't know it. I posted enough to make a comprehensible assertion.

"The entire Libyan war was based on lies of "responsibiity to protect" which was bogus."

Whatever.
You contriving some irrelevant invalid justification does not invalidate the valid justification.

Qadaffy's link to the Lockerbie bombing is well documented. That alone was enough to justify in international law the neutralization of that mass-murderer of innocent human airline passengers.

And legal fig leaves for the Obama administration abound.

 

[anatta]

Possibly not.
But neither of us can know that for certain.

For one example, the UBL termination could discourage others from accepting leadership terrorist roles.

View attachment 3377

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/images/attachement/jpg/site1/20090710/0013729e48090bc1321e37.jpg

big deal

View attachment 3378

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/576154476a119675c58759d6ffb6dee657af2aa.jpg

Perhaps.
But not likely.
Either way, how would you know? I made a post at a recreational BBS, not a scholarly exposé for commercial publication.
Just because I didn't post it doesn't mean I don't know it. I posted enough to make a comprehensible assertion.

Whatever.
You contriving some irrelevant invalid justification does not invalidate the valid justification.

Qadaffy's link to the Lockerbie bombing is well documented. That alone was enough to justify in international law the neutralization of that mass-murderer of innocent human airline passengers.

And legal fig leaves for the Obama administration abound.

there is some doubt about the Lockerbie bombing; the evidence was always tangential. Regardless reparations were paid,
Ghadafi was a member in good standing of the world community( why I showed you the photo of him and Obama skaking hands at a G-8)
and was set to get an award from the UN before we butchered him,and ushered in ISIS.

I urge you to give some critical thought to your positions on Qaddafi if you seek any semblance of truth.
Obama and Clinton specifically, have ruined Libya,as Bush ruined Iraq.

https://libyanfreepress.wordpress.c...addafi-was-to-receive-u-n-human-rights-award/
Before NATO and the U.S. started bombing Libya, the United Nations was preparing to bestow an award on Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, and the Libyan Jamahiriya, for its achievements in the area of human rights. That’s right–the same man, Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, that NATO and the United States have been telling us for months is a “brutal dictator,” was set to be given an award for his human rights record in Libya. How strange it is that the United Nations was set to bestow a human rights award on a “brutal dictator,” at the end of March.....

 

[sear]

"I urge you to give some critical thought to your positions on Qaddafi if you seek any semblance of truth."

I invite you to give any factual refutation to my posted words.

"Obama and Clinton specifically, have ruined Libya,as Bush ruined Iraq."

Lovely!
Have I posted anything to the contrary?

 

[PostmodernProphet]

The Republican Party has just been given a gift with two weeks to go in this election. Will they take it? They can gain seats in the Senate and the House by hanging this around every member of the democrat party running for office

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/302554-obamacare-hikes-leave-dems-exposed

many former Republicans don't......Colin Powel, George Bush, John Kasich,