Guno צְבִי (05-08-2021)
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Thanks. Some Christians even see Satan as more as God's Prosecutor rather than the source of all evil.
That never made sense to me since, if God is all powerful and all knowing, why couldn't God foresee Lucifer's revolt? It makes more sense that God would create Lucifer for contrast in man's free will; can't have free will if one doesn't have a choice or a range of choices.
Any ideas on where the story of Lucifer and the war in Heaven came about? Does Judaism see Lucifer as more of an agent of God rather than an opponent.
"Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"
Guno צְבִי (05-08-2021)
“If we have to have a choice between being dead and pitied, and being alive with a bad image, we’d rather be alive and have the bad image.”
— Golda Meir
Zionism is the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, the land of Israel.
“If Hamas put down their weapons, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons, there would be no Israel."
ברוך השם
Doc Dutch (05-08-2021)
Satan in Judaism is not a physical being ruling the underworld, rather, in the Torah, the word Satan indicates “accuser,” “hinderer” or “tempter.” Satan is therefore more an illusory obstacle in one’s way - such as temptation and evil doings - keeping one from completing the responsibilities of tikkun olam (fixing the world). Satan is the evil inclination to veer off the path of righteousness and faithfulness in God.
“If we have to have a choice between being dead and pitied, and being alive with a bad image, we’d rather be alive and have the bad image.”
— Golda Meir
Zionism is the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, the land of Israel.
“If Hamas put down their weapons, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons, there would be no Israel."
ברוך השם
Doc Dutch (05-08-2021)
SATAN: What the Bible Really Teaches About the Devil
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge...bout-the-devil
“If we have to have a choice between being dead and pitied, and being alive with a bad image, we’d rather be alive and have the bad image.”
— Golda Meir
Zionism is the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, the land of Israel.
“If Hamas put down their weapons, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons, there would be no Israel."
ברוך השם
The term “original sin” is unknown to the Jewish Scriptures, and the Church’s teachings on this doctrine are antithetical to the core principles of the Torah and its prophets
The doctrine of original sin is totally unacceptable to Jews , Jews believe that man enters the world free of sin, with a soul that is pure and innocent and untainted.
“If we have to have a choice between being dead and pitied, and being alive with a bad image, we’d rather be alive and have the bad image.”
— Golda Meir
Zionism is the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, the land of Israel.
“If Hamas put down their weapons, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons, there would be no Israel."
ברוך השם
Doc Dutch (05-08-2021)
I have never heard a reputable scholar of antiquity say Socrates was a fictional character.
Christopher Hitchens is not a scholar of antiquity, I do not think he even has a PhD, and as far as I can tell he became a militant atheist who made it a goal to troll Christians.
I do not deny there possibly might be scholars of antiquity who consider Socrates and Jesus to be fictional characters, but they are too few and way to far outside the mainstream to be given much weight.
Guno צְבִי (05-08-2021)
Yes, obviously Plato put some of his own ideas into Socrates' character in the dialogues. Socrates was a historical person, and people knew who he was -- so it would have looked foolish if Plato utterly misrepresented Socrates' general outlook on the human condition.
Plato obviously held his teacher Socrates in the highest esteem, but we will never be sure how much of the dialogues represented Plato's thinking as directly influenced by Socrates.
Probably most of The Republic is straight from the mind of Plato, but he undoutedly was influenced by the Socratic method and the moral philosophy of Socrates.
There is no genuine debate among reputable scholars of antiquity about the historicity of Socrates and Jesus.
Last edited by Cypress; 05-09-2021 at 06:22 AM.
Christian scholars believe the bible was directly influenced by Jesus, yet it is argued that the bible is a moral message with Jesus being a fictional character, or that there were many rabbis opposed to war and were spreading the word of a peaceful god which resulted in them being crucified.
I find it odd that 2 of the most influential philosophers never put pen to paper.
It is remarkable that any writing survives from the Late Bronze age.
Plato explained why Socrates did not write, and I mentioned it in a previous post.
Jesus was almost certainly illiterate, and could not write. The son of first century peasants from a one horse town, in a backwater province of the Roman Empire almost certainly never went to any school or received any academic education.
Moreover, Jesus was not an "influential" philosopher in his own lifetime. He was a Jewish apocalypticist with a ministry of a couple dozen people in the backwater, rural province of Galilee. He barely would have stood out against the other apocalyptic Jewish teachers of that time.
No one was clamouring for Jesus to write his biography and teachings, which he could not have done anyway due to his probable illiteracy.
The teachings of Jesus were circulated in written form decades after his execution, by highly educated Greek-speakers who recorded the events of Jesus' life based on the oral traditions about his him which were circulating in Palestine and Asia Minor. Paul is who made Jesus a household word by the fourth century.
Doc Dutch (05-09-2021)
In ancient Greece, the senate would vote for an influential and virtuous Athenian to become a demigod, similar to the way the pope decides who becomes a saint. It was Plato lobbying the senate through Socrates to be voted a demigod. We can see how frustrated Plato becomes when he is not being considered a vote for demigod. If Socrates actually walked the streets of Athens, he certainly would have been voted a demigod postmortem. According to Plato, Athens also held Socrates in high esteem and left a boat for him to escape the city and avoid the hemlock.
We can see the Greek influence on early christianity.
Myths about Friedrich Nietzsche:
-Nietzsche was a Nazi
The Nazi Party formed 20 years after Nietzsche died. Nietzsche was repulsed by his brother in law who was proto-fascist.
-Nietzsche was a nihilist.
Nihilism (the term comes from Russia) is the rejection of all values. Nietzsche is no nihilist, but rejects nihilistic values.
-Nietzsche was hostile toward Christians.
Nietzsche disliked some things about Christianity, particularly what Kierkegaard calls the Christian mob. Nietzsche admired those exceptional Christians (including
Jesus) who really lived what they claimed to believe in.
He objected to the hypocritical and self-righteous attitudes
that some Christians take toward their religious beliefs.
-Nietzsche was power-mad.
His concept of the “will to power” has led many to think he
applauded military conquest. Most of the time, Nietzsche uses the term psychologically, in a context of self improvement.
Source credit, Robert Solomon, PhD, Nietzsche scholar
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