Alternate Holocaust narrative

[Tranquillus in Exile]

The detailed figures for the nazi murders aren't knowable now, I think, but they certainly included vast numbers of Soviet citizens and Poles who weren't Jewish.

There are some fairly detailed figures from the US Holocaust Museum website in my post #214:

6 million Jews, up to half a million Gypsies (the site makes no distinction between Romanies and Gypsies), an unknown number of political prisoners, and around 8 million others.

Don't try discussing this with moonie, though, he denies that it's there.


Btw, you mention the infamous Belsen pictures. Belsen was an 'ordinary' concentration camp, not a death camp. The piles of dead that shocked the world were victims of disease and starvation right at the end of the war.

[Cypress]

The contrast between educated and other Americans is very marked, I think, and is a bit like the contrast between the two American Parties. I was taken to see the Belsen pictures as a young child, and have never quite got over it, though we knew about the concentration camps, which weren't made much of by Churchill. It shocks me deeply that we didn't drop arms for those in the Camps and Ghettoes to fight. Zionism, alas, was an understandable imitation of nazism when Jews who disagreed with them were being wiped out. The detailed figures for the nazi murders aren't knowable now, I think, but they certainly included vast numbers of Soviet citizens and Poles who weren't Jewish. Personally, I find American and Russian people equally likeable, but Republican Americans seem far more powerfully brainwashed than the Stalinists I used to argue with ever were.

Starvation, reprisals against civilians, and summary executions have been a part of warfare since the Bronze Age.

The Nazis obviously took it to a new level.

Wholesale genocide was a particularly unique and diabolical 20th century crime, and the Final Solution was the worst one of all - that is why I think it grips our collective imagination more than summary executions, starvation, or slave labor camps.

[moon]

There are some fairly detailed figures from the US Holocaust Museum website in my post #214:

6 million Jews, up to half a million Gypsies (the site makes no distinction between Romanies and Gypsies), an unknown number of political prisoners, and around 8 million others.

Don't try discussing this with moonie, though, he denies that it's there.


Btw, you mention the infamous Belsen pictures. Belsen was an 'ordinary' concentration camp, not a death camp. The piles of dead that shocked the world were victims of disease and starvation right at the end of the war.

Fool- those figures contradict the Holocaust Museum's own research. It has been asked to update its website accordingly.
You're more of a dumbass than you think.

Your latest semantic two-step between camps, death camps and concentration camps is laughable.

Haw, haw, haw, haw...............................haw.

EDIT; The museum is publishing its research in new encyclopedias- five of them before 2025.

[Cypress]

There are some fairly detailed figures from the US Holocaust Museum website in my post #214:

6 million Jews, up to half a million Gypsies (the site makes no distinction between Romanies and Gypsies), an unknown number of political prisoners, and around 8 million others.

Don't try discussing this with moonie, though, he denies that it's there.


Btw, you mention the infamous Belsen pictures. Belsen was an 'ordinary' concentration camp, not a death camp. The piles of dead that shocked the world were victims of disease and starvation right at the end of the war.

A lot of Americans have the misimpression that the US Army liberated death camps.

No such thing happened.

As you note, the western allies liberated concentration camps, where prisoners were suffering or dead from malnutrition, neglect, starvation, or other deprivations associated with prison camp life.

All the death camps were in Poland; the ones constructed with zyclon gas chambers and specifically planned, designed and engineered for industrial scale mass murder.

The death camps were all liberated by the Soviet Army.

[Tranquillus in Exile]

... those figures contradict the Holocaust Museum's own research. It has been asked to update its website accordingly.

The museum quotes the same figures as its research- 42,000 + camps and ghettos- but no good telling you that as you deny it's there.

Hello, moonie. You've been in touch with the Holocaust Museum? Did you congratulate them on discovering 42,000 "death camps"?

Let us know what they say! LOL.

[cancel2 2022]

Hello, moonie. You've been in touch with the Holocaust Museum? Did you congratulate them on discovering 42,000 "death camps"?

Let us know what they say! LOL.

The British liberated Bergen-Belsen and Dachau, they were horrified to discover evidence of cannabalism.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/3557341.stm

[Guno צְבִי]

A lot of Americans have the misimpression that the US Army liberated death camps.

No such thing happened.

As you note, the western allies liberated concentration camps, where prisoners were suffering or dead from malnutrition, neglect, starvation, or other deprivations associated with prison camp life.

All the death camps were in Poland; the ones constructed with zyclon gas chambers and specifically planned, designed and engineered for industrial scale mass murder.

The death camps were all liberated by the Soviet Army.

Some of my great aunts and uncles and cousins were murdered in Auschwitz , Thankfully, but too late for my family that the Red army liberated Auschwitz 27 January 1945. That date is commemorated in the Jewish community as Shoah remembrance day


https://www.ushmm.org/learn/timeline...rate-auschwitz

[moon]

Hello, moonie. You've been in touch with the Holocaust Museum? Did you congratulate them on discovering 42,000 "death camps"?

Let us know what they say! LOL.

Your semantic slithering is now passe, fool. The quote on the Holocaust Museum website, in line with its research , is ' camps and ghettos', 42,000 + . You really are a desperate twat.

[Cypress]

Some of my great aunts and uncles and cousins were murdered in Auschwitz , Thankfully, but too late for my family that the Red army liberated Auschwitz 27 January 1945. That date is commemorated in the Jewish community as Shoah remembrance day


https://www.ushmm.org/learn/timeline...rate-auschwitz

A credible case can be made that, because of the unexpected speed and ferocity of the Soviet Army's advance into Poland, hundreds of thousands of Jews were spared from murder in the gas chambers.

[The Sage of Main Street]

In very round figures, some 3 million Soviet POWs died in German captivity.

https://russia-insider.com/en/deaths...orers-184/5770

Give the Bear a Hug; His Fur Is Soaked With Nazi Blood

The Nazis would have exterminated all the Russians and Poles if they had won. And nothing would have been said about it, because if they had conquered Russia, they would have gone on to conquer the whole intelligent world.

[moon]

Give the Bear a Hug; His Fur Is Soaked With Nazi Blood

The Nazis would have exterminated all the Russians and Poles if they had won. And nothing would have been said about it, because if they had conquered Russia, they would have gone on to conquer the whole intelligent world.

Hitler lost the war by opening an eastern front. The Russians won it.

[Cypress]

This is the US National Holocaust Museum's current estimate of civilian deaths caused by Nazi Germany.

A large proportion of the Soviet and Polish civilian deaths are due to collateral damage from military operations, summary execution of suspected resistance and partisan fighters, and reprisals against civilians for suspected support of resistance groups, all framed by a callous disregard for the lives of Slavic peoples.

What follow are the current best estimates of civilians and captured soldiers killed by the Nazi regime and its collaborators.

These estimates are calculated from wartime reports generated by those who implemented Nazi population policy, and postwar demographic studies on population loss during World War II.

Current USNHM Estimate of Civilian Deaths

Jews - 6 million

Soviet civilians - around 7 million (including 1.3 Soviet Jewish civilians, who are included in the 6 million figure for Jews)

Soviet prisoners of war - around 3 million (including about 50,000 Jewish soldiers)

Non-Jewish Polish civilians - around 1.8 million (including between 50,000 and 100,000 members of the Polish elites)

Serb civilians - 312,000

People with disabilities living in institutions - up to 250,000

Roma (Gypsies) - between 250,000 and 500,000

Jehovah's Witnesses - around 1,900

Repeat criminal offenders - at least 70,000

German political opponents and resistance activists in Axis-occupied territory - undetermined

Homosexuals - hundreds, possibly thousands (possibly also counted in part under the 70,000 repeat criminal offenders and so-called asocials noted above)



Documentary Notes on Polish and Soviet civilian figures

With regard to the Polish and Soviet civilian figures, at this time there are not sufficient demographic tools to enable historians to distinguish between:

racially targeted individuals

persons actually or believed to be active in underground resistance

persons killed in reprisal for some actual or perceived resistance activity carried out by someone else

losses due to so-called collateral damage in actual military operations

Virtually all deaths of Soviet, Polish, and Serb civilians during the course of military and anti-partisan operations had, however, a racist component. German units conducted those operations with an ideologically driven and willful disregard for civilian life.



https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...zi-persecution

h

[Tranquillus in Exile]

Your semantic slithering is now passe, fool. The quote on the Holocaust Museum website, in line with its research , is ' camps and ghettos', 42,000 + .

We were talking about extermination camps. This is what the Holocaust Museum website has to say:

Between 1941 and 1944, Nazi Germany and its allies deported Jews from areas under their control to killing centers. These killing centers, often called extermination camps in English, were located in German-occupied Poland. Poison gas was the primary means of murder at these camps. Nearly 2.7 million Jews were murdered at the five killing centers: Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor, Treblinka, and Auschwitz-Birkenau.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...-the-holocaust

That’s five, or six counting Majdanek. Not 42,000.

If you really don’t understand the difference between extermination camps and the rest, try this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_camp

[Walt]

The British liberated Bergen-Belsen and Dachau, they were horrified to discover evidence of cannabalism.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/3557341.stm

The actual link states that the British were horrified by the evidence of death, not the reacts to the desperation:

1945: British troops liberate Bergen-Belsen
British troops have entered the German concentration camp of Bergen-Belsen.
Inside the camp the horrified soldiers found piles of dead and rotting corpses and thousands of sick and starving prisoners kept in severely overcrowded and dirty compounds.

Belsen, near Hanover in Germany, is the first concentration camp to be liberated by the British. Details of the conditions inside are likely to horrify a public which until now has only heard limited descriptions from the camps in Poland freed by the Red Army.

The first British soldiers who entered Bergen-Belsen have described seeing a huge pile of dead, naked women's bodies within full view of several hundred children held at the camp.


From where we were, we could see the desperate plight of the inmates

People's War memories »

The gutters, too, were filled with dead bodies.

One of the reasons the Germans agreed to surrender Belsen was because so many of the inmates were diseased. There was no running water in the camp and there were epidemics of typhus, typhoid and tuberculosis.

There were thousands of sick women, who should have been in hospital, lying on hard, bare bug-ridden boards. Of the 1,704 acute typhus, typhoid and tuberculosis cases, only 474 women had bunks to sleep on.

There were fewer male prisoners, but they were also kept in severely overcrowded and dirty conditions.

One of the British senior medical officers, Brigadier Llewellyn Glyn- Hughes, told the Reuters news agency he saw evidence of cannibalism in the camp. There were bodies with no flesh on them and the liver, kidneys and heart removed.

He said their first priority was to remove the dead bodies from the camp. He was told some 30,000 people had died in the past few months.

He said typhus had caused far fewer deaths than starvation. Men and women had tried to keep themselves clean with dregs from coffee cups. Medical supplies were severely limited - there were no vaccines, or drugs and no treatments for lice.

The only food available for the prisoners was turnip soup and British guards had to fire over the heads of prisoners to restore order among those desperate to get at the food stores.

Those prisoners who were too weak to get up and collect their food went without and died.

The camp commandant, who was described as "unashamed" at the camp conditions, has been placed under arrest.

[moon]

We were talking about extermination camps. This is what the Holocaust Museum website has to say:

Between 1941 and 1944, Nazi Germany and its allies deported Jews from areas under their control to killing centers. These killing centers, often called extermination camps in English, were located in German-occupied Poland. Poison gas was the primary means of murder at these camps. Nearly 2.7 million Jews were murdered at the five killing centers: Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor, Treblinka, and Auschwitz-Birkenau.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/conte...-the-holocaust

That’s five, or six counting Majdanek. Not 42,000.

If you really don’t understand the difference between extermination camps and the rest, try this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extermination_camp

As I said , your semantic slithering is passe. The topic was the Holocaust- all of it- not specific camps. Your thick skin matches your intellectual dishonesty. Tory ?
Now eat the Holocaust Museum research- 42,000 + You're a bum.

Haw, haw...................................haw.

Researchers at the US Holocaust Memorial Museum spent 13 years analyzing evidence and cataloged some 42,500 ghettos and forced labor camps run by Hitler’s regime.

That number includes "killing centers,"as well as "care" centers where pregnant women were forced to have abortions or their babies were killed after birth, and about 500 brothels, The New York Times reported in an article titled: "The Holocaust just got more shocking."

Conventional wisdom on the Holocaust suggests that the Nazis killed six million Jewish people in Europe .

According to researchers the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington DC, construction of the camps began as early as 1933, with facilities purpose built to imprison political opponents of Adolf Hitler.

However, they were adapted to imprison gypsies and many other ethnic groups as Germany began its invasion of Europe.

One of the lead editors in the project, called the Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, Geoffrey Megargee said when the study began in 2000, he had assumed they would find about 7,000 camps and ghettos.

But as their work continued and they discovered more and more camps, the numbers skyrocketed to 11,500, "then 20,000, then 30,000, and now 42,500."

The Independent quoted Megargee as saying:

"The results of our research are shocking. We are putting together numbers that no one ever compiled before, even for camp systems that have been fairly well researched - and many of them have not been."

The Holocaust Museum team created maps of the sites, which were scattered across Europe from France to Russia, and which imprisoned or killed between 15 and 20 million people.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2013-03-...mps-previously

Auschwitz and a handful of other concentration camps have come to symbolize the Nazi killing machine in the public consciousness. Likewise,

the Nazi system for imprisoning Jewish families in hometown ghettos has become associated with a single site — the Warsaw Ghetto, famous for

the 1943 uprising. But these sites, infamous though they are, represent only a minuscule fraction of the entire German network, the new research

makes painfully clear.

The maps the researchers have created to identify the camps and ghettos turn wide sections of wartime Europe into black clusters of death,

torture and slavery — centered in Germany and Poland, but reaching in all directions.

The lead editors on the project, Geoffrey Megargee and Martin Dean, estimate that 15 million to 20 million people died or were imprisoned in the

sites that they have identified as part of a multivolume encyclopedia. (The Holocaust museum has published the first two, with five more planned

by 2025.)

The existence of many individual camps and ghettos was previously known only on a fragmented, region-by-region basis. But the researchers, using data from some 400 contributors, have been documenting the entire scale for the first time, studying where they were located, how they were run, and what their purpose was.


https://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/s...-shocking.html