Penny used a long known pro wrestling "sleeper" hold on Neely.

[evince]

It is easy to judge after the fact but when you are in the situation you don’t have time to think

Now if you have years of practice putting choking moves on people you will probably know what is excessive but Penny didn’t have that training

He had time to think


He had minutes to think



People were telling him to STOP or he would kill the guy


You just like death

[zappasguitar]

It's very very sad to see that anyone belives that this was intentional... and one of the reasons that he has so much support from the vast majority...If one person feels that way that's one too many...

I hate to break it to you, but "It was an accident, I didn't mean to kill him", is NOT an acceptable defense.

It may not have been intentional, but he still KILLED someone and he needs to be punished.

[Hawkeye10]

Pro wrestling is theater.

[Althea]

I think that I gave a pretty good and scientifically valid argument for it being intentional.

It's possible that he just freaked out and adrenalated? This guy posed no physical threat as several people had him subdued. Intentional or not, it was criminally negligent homicide.

What I find hysterical is that a centuries old rear naked choke somehow got glorified and renamed 'sleeper hold'. Of course, nothing about 'wrestling' is real, including the actual sleeping.

It sure as hell works in MMA, though

[Althea]

Oh stop it, Nora.

Neely had everyone so afraid of what he might do, they got out of their seats and huddled together at one end of the train car.

He put people in fear for their lives.

That alone justified Penny stepping in.

His only mistake was in the choice of restraining hold he used.

The message every potential future good Samaritan ought to glean from this case, the Floyd case and others is...

KEEP OFF OF NECKS AND CHESTS.
DO NOT IMPEDE BREATHING OR BLOOD FLOW TO CRANIUMS.

New rule of thumb.

If a raging lunatic is struggling, it might be harder to subdue him employing other methods.

As you suggest, the issue is the length of time he chose to engage the choke. Clearly the victim stopped struggling.

[NiftyNiblick]

It's possible that he just freaked out and adrenalated? This guy posed no physical threat as several people had him subdued. Intentional or not, it was criminally negligent homicide.

What I find hysterical is that a centuries old rear naked choke somehow got glorified and renamed 'sleeper hold'. Of course, nothing about 'wrestling' is real, including the actual sleeping.

It sure as hell works in MMA, though

Even pro wrestling has begun to call it by its real name, rear naked choke, due to the MMA influence.
They also have tap outs instead of verbal submissions thanks to MMA.

The athleticism in pro wrestling is real, I suppose,
but they no longer try to get the fans to suspend disbelief
and briefly react as if it were actual competition anymore.

They simulate actual felonies and nobody even gets suspended, much less arrested on the spot!

As a real boxer, I would have gone directly to jail if I jumped into the ring and interfered with an ongoing contest,
and even if somehow I didn't,
I'd have never gotten to box again. That's for certain.

But the modern fans are getting the video game wrestling that they enjoy, I guess.
It's a way for people to make a living,
and even I can dig the Japanese ladies when they're on..

[ThatOwlWoman]

It's very very sad to see that anyone belives that this was intentional... and one of the reasons that he has so much support from the vast majority...If one person feels that way that's one too many...

So I hear you saying that it's okay to kill someone, as long as "the vast majority" agrees that it's okay.

[Damocles]

We are having the wrong conversation on this one.

This mentally ill man was arrested multiple times but refused treatment and became a threat to himself and others. I get that he danced like Michael Jackson on some of his good days, but that does not change that he threatened people on the train and was insistent that he cared nothing at all for his own life.

In a city where mentally ill folks have pushed folks down the stairs, hit old women in their face, pushed folks into oncoming trains, threats on the subway should be taken seriously.

It is my humblest opinion, and this is from someone who doesn't like unnecessary government intervention, that folks that are seriously mentally ill, as this gentleman was, need to be put into care and given medication. They are too mentally ill to avoid it by revoking consent and are a danger to themselves and others. We need to do better taking care of the mentally ill rather than instantly go into "racism" chants and assume that his cutest baby pictures and videos of his first steps and dancing like nobody was watching are how he was acting when he was accosting strangers on the subway.

Mentally ill people can be both the guy who danced on the subway and on a different day (or even the same one if they are mentally ill enough) the guy who threatened to attack others on the subway and was unafraid of consequences. Unfortunately this guy was both of those things.

[Hawkeye10]

We are having the wrong conversation on this one.

This mentally ill man was arrested multiple times but refused treatment and became a threat to himself and others. I get that he danced like Michael Jackson on some of his good days, but that does not change that he threatened people on the train and was insistent that he cared nothing at all for his own life.

In a city where mentally ill folks have pushed folks down the stairs, hit old women in their face, pushed folks into oncoming trains, threats on the subway should be taken seriously.

It is my humblest opinion, and this is from someone who doesn't like unnecessary government intervention, that folks that are seriously mentally ill, as this gentleman was, need to be put into care and given medication. They are too mentally ill to avoid it by revoking consent and are a danger to themselves and others. We need to do better taking care of the mentally ill rather than instantly go into "racism" chants and assume that his cutest baby pictures and videos of his first steps and dancing like nobody was watching are how he was acting when he was accosting strangers on the subway.

Mentally ill people can be both the guy who danced on the subway and on a different day (or even the same one if they are mentally ill enough) the guy who threatened to attack others on the subway and was unafraid of consequences. Unfortunately this guy was both of those things.

The right conversation is about how we as a society, to include the Right, have promoted mental illness, and how we refuse to change course.

[Althea]

We are having the wrong conversation on this one.

This mentally ill man was arrested multiple times but refused treatment and became a threat to himself and others. I get that he danced like Michael Jackson on some of his good days, but that does not change that he threatened people on the train and was insistent that he cared nothing at all for his own life.

In a city where mentally ill folks have pushed folks down the stairs, hit old women in their face, pushed folks into oncoming trains, threats on the subway should be taken seriously.

It is my humblest opinion, and this is from someone who doesn't like unnecessary government intervention, that folks that are seriously mentally ill, as this gentleman was, need to be put into care and given medication. They are too mentally ill to avoid it by revoking consent and are a danger to themselves and others. We need to do better taking care of the mentally ill rather than instantly go into "racism" chants and assume that his cutest baby pictures and videos of his first steps and dancing like nobody was watching are how he was acting when he was accosting strangers on the subway.

Mentally ill people can be both the guy who danced on the subway and on a different day (or even the same one if they are mentally ill enough) the guy who threatened to attack others on the subway and was unafraid of consequences. Unfortunately this guy was both of those things.

Good points. We don't care about the mentally ill since Reagan.

That's why so many of them are in prison. Or buying assault weapons before a killing spree.

Something has to change.

[Damocles]

Good points. We don't care about the mentally ill since Reagan.

That's why so many of them are in prison. Or buying assault weapons before a killing spree.

Something has to change.

I agree, but to abandon them was not the right answer, nor was leaving them in the state controlled "hospitals" (more like abattoirs)... The abuse is something of a legend among both true crime enthusiasts and the folks that believe in ghosts alike. Blaming this on Reagan is a bit like blaming the plague on Camus. Yeah, they both talked about the problem, but they weren't the cause of it.

I mean this image was from a contemporary time period to just before the closing of the "hospitals".... this was the United States of America... we MUST do better than this and stop blaming "racism" every time something like this happens. This poor guy needed treatment, instead he was returned to the streets, without a shred of help to live (what did AOC call it... oh yeah!) houseless getting constantly more ill...

[Nomad]

It's possible that he just freaked out and adrenalated? This guy posed no physical threat as several people had him subdued. Intentional or not, it was criminally negligent homicide.

I think it might be more accurate to say that he STOPPED posing a physical threat AFTER several people had subdued him.

Prior to the subordination, he did pose a very possible physical threat.

I agree that it was negligent homicide on Penny's part, but I'm hoping they find extenuating circumstances and his punishment is in the more minimal range.

He made a bad decision to use that hold.

What I find hysterical is that a centuries old rear naked choke somehow got glorified and renamed 'sleeper hold'. Of course, nothing about 'wrestling' is real, including the actual sleeping.

It sure as hell works in MMA, though

I don't know how old you are, but I'm guessing you're somewhat younger than I am and you probably weren't around back in the late 60's when wrestlers first started using the move. But I can tell you that, even though wrestling is somewhat choreographed and fake, it's not ALL choreographed and fake. I believe that the guys I saw back then who had that hold applied to them, as their faces turned bright red then purple prior to going limp, really were rendered unconscious.

Maybe by your time it had all gotten more fake like everything else has.

Also, to say that it was renamed FROM 'naked choke' to 'sleeper hold' and that doing so is somehow glorifying it, sounds pretty hysterical to me.

You've got the chronological order backwards.

It was called 'the sleeper hold' long before the more current, younger generation's ghetto influenced manner of speaking gave it that macho shithead sounding MMA title, 'naked choke'.

Also, I don't see how the name 'sleeper hold' supposedly "glorifies" it.

[Althea]

I agree, but to abandon them was not the right answer, nor was leaving them in the state controlled "hospitals" (more like abattoirs)... The abuse is something of a legend among both true crime enthusiasts and the folks that believe in ghosts alike. Blaming this on Reagan is a bit like blaming the plague on Camus. Yeah, they both talked about the problem, but they weren't the cause of it.

I mean this image was from a contemporary time period to just before the closing of the "hospitals".... this was the United States of America... we MUST do better than this and stop blaming "racism" every time something like this happens. This poor guy needed treatment, instead he was returned to the streets, without a shred of help to live (what did AOC call it... oh yeah!) houseless getting constantly more ill...

I was in high school in NY when Geraldo exposed the atrocities at Willowbrook. My friends and I used to volunteer for school credit at Rockland State. We know a lot more now than we did about mental illness back then, and the drugs are better.

Reagan did cut all Federal funding for institutions, which was the last nail in the coffin for the industry.

[Nomad]

In a city where mentally ill folks have pushed folks down the stairs, hit old women in their face, pushed folks into oncoming trains, threats on the subway should be taken seriously.

That ^^^^^ is the main issue and the one which I hope the judge and jury take into account.

[Damocles]

I think it might be more accurate to say that he STOPPED posing a physical threat AFTER several people had subdued him.

Prior to the subordination, he did pose a very possible physical threat.

I agree that it was negligent homicide on Penny's part, but I'm hoping they find extenuating circumstances and his punishment is in the more minimal range.

He made a bad decision to use that hold.



I don't know how old you are, but I'm guessing you're somewhat younger than I am and you probably weren't around back in the late 60's when wrestlers first started using the move. But I can tell you that, even though wrestling is somewhat choreographed and fake, it's not ALL choreographed and fake. I believe that the guys I saw back then who had that hold applied to them, as their faces turned bright red then purple prior to going limp, really were rendered unconscious.

Maybe by your time it had all gotten more fake like everything else has.

Also, to say that it was renamed FROM 'naked choke' to 'sleeper hold' and that doing so is somehow glorifying it, sounds pretty hysterical to me.

You've got the chronological order backwards.

It was called 'the sleeper hold' long before the more current, younger generation's ghetto influenced manner of speaking gave it that macho shithead sounding MMA title, 'naked choke'.

Also, I don't see how the name 'sleeper hold' supposedly "glorifies" it.

A "rear naked choke" also involves using your legs to keep them from kicking. Like this: