It's Not Just Thoughts Either--Peace Sermon's Are Also Unacceptable

[Prakosh]

It appears that in spite of all the Holy Roller, Fundamentalist, End Times Church's that have supported Bush, the only churches that are getting IRS scrutiny seem to be those which have preached sermons of peace. So much for that "Prince Of Peace" stuff, apparently in the Bush lexicon Chirst is a war-mongering warrior and anyone who says differently is found "unacceptible" and will be visited and probably prosecuted by the IRS. Of course then the conservative churches can jump up and down and proclaim that this proves there is a war on Christianity...It's really win, win for them.

IRS Investigating Prominent Liberal Church
Associated Press

LOS ANGELES (Sept. 16) - The Internal Revenue Service has ordered a prominent liberal church to turn over documents and e-mails it produced during the 2004 election year that contain references to political candidates.

The IRS is investigating whether All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena violated the federal tax code when its former rector, Rev. George F. Regas, delivered an anti-war sermon on the eve of the last presidential election.

Tax-exempt organizations are barred from intervening in political campaigns and elections, and the church could lose its tax-exempt status.

Rev. Ed Bacon received a summons Thursday ordering the church to present any politically charged sermons, newsletters and electronic communications by Sept 29.

Bacon was ordered to testify before IRS officials Oct. 11. He said he will inform his roughly 3,500 congregants about the investigation at Sunday's services, and will seek their advice on whether to comply.

"There is a lot at stake here," Bacon said. "If the IRS prevails, it will have a chilling effect on the practice of religion in America."

An IRS spokesperson declined comment on the investigation.

In a sermon two days before the 2004 election, Regas did not urge parishioners to support President Bush or challenger John Kerry but was critical of the Iraq war and Bush's tax cuts, Bacon said in an interview last November when the investigation was announced.

"He explicitly said, 'I am not telling you how to vote.' That is the golden boundary we did not cross," he said.

All Saints has a long history of social activism, dating back to World War II, when its rector spoke out against the internment of Japanese Americans. Regas, who headed the church for 28 years before retiring in 1995, was well-known for opposing the Vietnam War, championing female clergy and supporting gays and lesbians in the church.

The IRS has revoked a church's charitable designation at least once. A church in Binghamton, N.Y., lost its status after running advertisements against Bill Clinton's candidacy before the 1992 presidential election.

Full Story

[Damocles]

How many churches per year are investigated? And when they investigated the "Focus on the Family" folks I didn't hear all this about how War Mongering Bush Followers were "unacceptible"...

Let's see if I can find examples of right-wing churches or organizations that have lost tax exemptions after investigation...

Do you think I can?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/15/us...ref=washington

Anti-Abortion Group Loses Tax Exemption

http://phoenix.bizjournals.com/phoen...22/story6.html

Church loses tax exempt status

Hmmm... There's two and it took about three seconds of searching...

It appears that you are guilty of what you attempted to paint H2O with...

[Prakosh]

How many churches per year are investigated? And when they investigated the "Focus on the Family" folks I didn't hear all this about how War Mongering Bush Followers were "unacceptible"...

Let's see if I can find examples of right-wing churches or organizations that have lost tax exemptions after investigation...

Do you think I can?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/15/us...ref=washington

Anti-Abortion Group Loses Tax Exemption

http://phoenix.bizjournals.com/phoen...22/story6.html

Church loses tax exempt status

Hmmm... There's two and it took about three seconds of searching...

It appears that you are guilty of what you attempted to paint H2O with...

You didn't really have to go to all that trouble. The last paragraph of what I posted said they had done it to another Church during Bill Clinton's 1992 campaign:
"The IRS has revoked a church's charitable designation at least once. A church in Binghamton, N.Y., lost its status after running advertisements against Bill Clinton's candidacy before the 1992 presidential election."

That was right in that part of the story that I posted. But glad you liked my argument so well that you decided to use against me. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[Damocles]

Right, except I worked to find recent ones, that were in Bush's time. I wasn't saying that Clinton did it too, I was saying that this wasn't likely an attack on the message.

[Prakosh]

Right, except I worked to find recent ones, that were in Bush's time. I wasn't saying that Clinton did it too, I was saying that this wasn't likely an attack on the message.

But this one from the Business Journal was from 1997 on a crime that was committed in 1987.

Church loses tax exempt status
The Business Journal of Phoenix - September 19, 1997
by William M. Ringle Jr
Special To The Business Journal

The Internal Revenue Service has revoked the tax exemption of the Phoenix-based Don Stewart Association, which operates a network of churches and conducts religious revivals worldwide.

The organization -- which says it conducts worship and religious activities in the United States and eight foreign countries -- "is not a church" for tax purposes, the IRS says.

The revocation -- based almost entirely on incidents that the IRS says occurred a decade ago -- was issued May 30, but is retroactive to Jan. 1, 1987. In that year and earlier, the IRS claims, some of the association's expenses, unconnected with its religious work, went for the personal benefit of the Rev. Don Stewart, its president and chief operating officer, and some members of his family.

Only one is from recent times and it isn't a church it is an anti-abortion group Operation Rescue West.

So you haven't yet shown that a fundamentalist end times church who openly supported Bush has been investigated by Bush or the IRS and has lost their tax exempt status since Bush took office. Although you are right, I did say none had and if you find one that has you have shown me to be wrong, but so far none of these that you have presented here meet that criteria. I welcome new information, I would love to be wrong on this one, I don't think anyone has investigated "Focus on the Family", Bush has a Monday morning meeting with James Dobson nearly every week, just to check in and make sure that the "base " is secure.

And one other thing, just to clearify. I didn't say "the only churches...'are' " I said "the only churches...'seem to be' " And even though I used the word "all," I didn't use it not to mean "all" churches were doing something but to mean "all" those churches which were doing something and I used the word "only" but in conjunction with the word "seem." So accusing me of doing what I said Waterboy was doing was an erroneous accusation.

[Care4all]

On television I saw fundamentalist preachers tell their congregation that they would be going to HELL IF THEY VOTED FOR A DEMOCRAT, is that political?

If this minister told them he was NOT GOING to tell them how to vote, but had a sermon on war and helping those that have less and this is what they are sicking the IRS on them for.....

Then it is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG,,,,

there is no justification for it, there is no excuses for it, no matter WHAT someone has done under clinton or in the past.....geeeees louise!

[Care4all]

There also was a church in Alabama where the minister kicked out parisioners from their church because they refused to vote for Bush.... remember that?


Where was the irs when it came to that church, it was all over the news how this minister of this church CLEARLY BROKE the LAW....?

[Damocles]

Nope. I did, however, provide links there...

[Damocles]

The point is, Prakosh, you can simply type in Google the words "Lose Tax Exempt status church" and read away, there is story after story of it both left and right. It happens regardless of political leaning.

[Prakosh]

The point is, Prakosh, you can simply type in Google the words "Lose Tax Exempt status church" and read away, there is story after story of it both left and right. It happens regardless of political leaning.

If that is the case, and I have no reason to doubt you, why didn't either of those stories that you posted refer to current right wing churches that are under investigation???? It seems that the best evidence for your position would have included that kind of evidence. Operations Rescue West is not a right wing fundamnetalist chutch although they appear to be a right wing terrorist organization which simply regrouped using the name of their umbrella right wing terrorist organization. So why were they allowed to skirt or flout the law in this manner? And why aren't they on a terrorist watch list and outlawed in the United States?

[Damocles]

Bull one of the stories was from this year. This whole "if that's true" only means you either have a hard time finding Google, or you really don't care. This site isn't made to bring Google to you...

[Egroeg]

Actually, Damo. It is actually pretty rare for a church to lose this status. If you do that search in Google you get many stories, but they are pretty much about the same three churches. One in Reagan's term, one with Clinton, the last with Bush.

The idea that it was because of opposing political views is a bit off though, there are plenty of churches with opposing views to Bush's that have never been investigated.

[Damocles]

The Buddhist Temple I go to, even before the war, had a visiting Bodhisattva teach against the Iraqi War. I'm pretty sure they have tax-exempt status too...

[Prakosh]

Bull one of the stories was from this year. This whole "if that's true" only means you either have a hard time finding Google, or you really don't care. This site isn't made to bring Google to you...

Yes one of the stories was from this year but it wasn't about a church!!! There is no church called "Operation Rescue West!"

The story I posted contained a story about another church--a liberal church. I said the IRS under Bush has not attacked a conservative holly roller church for advocating for Bush, you took exception to that statement and began debating it. But so far you have not shown that Bush's IRS has been investigating Right Wing Conservative Churchs which were widely portrayed in the press as being blatantly pro-Bush in the 2004 election. Now you seem to be claiming that it is up to me to prove your side of the argument. I don't think that is how it works, unless you subscribe to a revolutionary debate format that I have never heard of. Usually if you want to prove me wrong it is up to you to do so. And proving me wrong does not consist in posting the web addresses for two sites that contain stories that do not refute my claim and then telling me that I can go to google and look up a refutation myself. Why not just call this site, your site the "Twilight Zone"????

[Damocles]

Yes one of the stories was from this year but it wasn't about a church!!! There is no church called "Operation Rescue West!"

The story I posted contained a story about another church--a liberal church. I said the IRS under Bush has not attacked a conservative holly roller church for advocating for Bush, you took exception to that statement and began debating it. But so far you have not shown that Bush's IRS has been investigating Right Wing Conservative Churchs which were widely portrayed in the press as being blatantly pro-Bush in the 2004 election. Now you seem to be claiming that it is up to me to prove your side of the argument. I don't think that is how it works, unless you subscribe to a revolutionary debate format that I have never heard of. Usually if you want to prove me wrong it is up to you to do so. And proving me wrong does not consist in posting the web addresses for two sites that contain stories that do not refute my claim and then telling me that I can go to google and look up a refutation myself. Why not just call this site, your site the "Twilight Zone"????

It is funded by religious organization.

Pretending that this happened because of the political stance is rubbish, if it were so that Anti-Abortion place wouldn't be in that particular barrel now, would it? This is lsuch a hackneyed defense...

This church from 2004 being attacked by Bush for its stance! But this Anti-Abortion group agrees with him, that's a non-partisan actual investigation...

It couldn't be that the Church might have crossed the line? That after investigation nothing might happen to it? Could it be that there are more than just this one church who preach against this war on the pulpit?

Have you proven any of my points invalid? No... All you have done is successfully painted yourself the partisan you pretend not to be!