THE QUESTION OF WHETHER ANY GODS EXIST...

[TrippyHippy]

Oh look, another leftist loon excuse to bash Christians. How original.

Come on man, he's not "bashing" anyone.

[Frank Apisa]

Pretty sure that today's school shooting (the 18th this year, according to Everytown) puts to rest this question once and for all. There are no gods.

Or...there are gods...and the gods do not give a damn about what we do.

The notion of praying to a god to stop the carnage...of praying to a god willing to allow the carnage to take place...does seem futile.

[Frank Apisa]

reminds of a dog I was priveledged to be family with


she was more delicate looking than that one


she was the most intelligent animal I have ever known.

she would sit in front of me and talk to me.

I would have her do the

Do you want such and such


a woof meant yes


just looking me in the eye and not saying anything meant No


she had the power to make clear what she wanted by us just knowing each other so well


she was beautiful

she looked like a black wolf with a docked tail


but her coat was soft as feathers


what a girl she was


stunning


and found at the pound

rescue


go there and let some dog steal your heart


then take care of them for their entire life


you will remember them as one of your best friends ever in life

I really like that dog that is your avatar, Evince. A beauty.

[Frank Apisa]

we will try to keep it going


its a great exersize to help people re evaluate their morals


this is a national time of moral confusion


time to go back over the basics of belief

what ever you believe


there is always the now

to quote another great man of peace


"a mighty god


is a living man"


which means to me


whatever you believe that makes you the ambassador of your own beliefs.


make your life the tool of what you believe

that is truly giving your life to god IF you truly believe in GOD

Jesus was a great human philosopher

he spoke of a beautiful mankind we could create


he said nothing of letting children die so people could have guns they don't need


what would make you think he would back not feeding hungry children because you thought their Mom was lazy.


American Christians sometimes seem to want they shame their faith

Unless the god is one that does not care.

There may be gods...but just not the kind we humans favor for "worshiping."

We'll get back to the discussion...although the distraction will probably remain for a while.

[Frank Apisa]

Logically speaking....answer this one question. Can you explain via using the laws of physics just what Caused the physical universe to come into physical reality?

No...it is unknown to me.

I cannot even understand why you suppose it "came into" physical reality.

Suppose it didn't?

In other words if there is no "SUPER(superior) Natural (to nature) cause of the creation....where did the required products of the BIG BANG come from....mass/matter, it is beyond the capacity of natural physics to define its own creation then by logic....it must be a product of a superior force than physical reality. If not...why not? Did the universe create itself from NOTHING? Even if you attempt to theorize countless and untold "parallel" realities/universes...i.e., the multiverse theory....there must have been a beginning because physical science proves that the Universe is expanding and dying.

Beats the hell of me. I do not know seems the only reasonable, logical answer to those questions.

Your "it must have had a beginning" is an interesting guess, though.

Call it what you will.....but according to the law of causality....SOMETHING SUPERIOR to the natural universe is responsible for its creation its physical existence...THE EFFECT known as physical reality. I simply accept my place as the inferior to that creating force an live my life as directed by both science and logic.

And by use of deductive reasoning based upon simple logic....that supernatural creating force is ETERNAL...unlike its product....the physical universe.

I thank you for those guesses...but nothing you said there is logical...or deductive reasoning.

You may not be able to explain creation by science....but that does not stop the reality from existing, nor does your ignorance prohibit a supernatural force from existing...as its beyond the laws of physical science to quantify or calibrate. The created can never be greater than the whole from which it was subtracted......You might have a paradox....but I do not, I simply define truth via the prima facie evidences that surround us on a daily basis. Unlike you.....who needs to measure something he/she is incapable of measuring....I DO NOT need such objective evidence in oder to define truth beyond the reason of doubt....until YOU or anyone can scientifically present the objective, testable, reproducible, constant facts that debunk the existence of a supernatural creating force.....the prima facie evidence stands unchallenged by physics that cannot even comprehend the reasons that physical laws are as they are.......\

You seem intent on your conclusion...which I think came before all the reasoning. I find that with atheists also.

I cannot "objective, testable, reproducible, constant facts that debunk your guesses...but I don't think the burden of proof is on me.

FYI: its not a matter of "blind faith"....its a matter of truth as defined via circumstantial evidences

.

I think you are guessing...and claiming your guesses are not guesses.

Its exactly because you can't prove that God does not exist...that grants me the continued use of these prima facie evidences that are yet to be debunked by REAL PHYSICAL SCIENCE. Its nothing but pseudo science to suggest that theory, conjecture, and or speculation stands as scientific fact...when in reality its nothing but HUMAN PHILOSOPHY that exists only in one place...between the ears of someone who is suggesting it as truth that is yet to be proven....that my friend is the very definition of BLIND FAITH....propagating something as a HOPED FOR TRUTH void of having the physical factual evidence to support it. Yet your philosophy is superior those who use circumstantial evidences in order to test anything for truth?

The burden of proof, Ralph, is on the person making the assertion. You are asserting "all this" had a beginning...and the beginning was caused by a god.

Where is the proof?

Even in a court of law....prima facie evidences stand as valid evidence of convection until some Objective Testable Evidence is presented that proves the circumstantial evidence to be false.

There is no "rabbit hole" to enter.....when all the proof one requires is all around them. Simple things, like Love.....the inability of science to create life from nothing as they claim happened in the past...yet cannot reproduce today, if indeed it were a fact of science. Even a simple term like gravity.....as the only thing that can be defined about gravity is its quantifiable effects.....we know it exists by the fact its effects are subject to quantifiable reality...but some attempt to claim that GRAVITY preexisted the big bang and caused everything to come from nothing. Well....Mr. Hawking ....is GRAVITY nothing or is it Something? If it has the power to create...then it must be physically quantifiable and it is SOMETHING....where did gravity come from? Its your guild that has the paradox....not those who accept their place in this physical realm as being INFERIOR to that creating force....whether its called God or Nature.

Thank you for all this. You put lots of effort into this. I'll read other reactions to it...and then maybe get back to you.

[Frank Apisa]

because its an obvious troll.....no one has contemplated and dealt with the question of whether the existence of God can be proved.....except perhaps a few daft folks who challenge people to prove it to them......one isn't convinced to believe in God........one simply chooses whether or not to believe.....

I am not a troll.

If you think the question is stupid...fine. You've mentioned that...so move on.

"The question" is one that has been contemplated and discussed by people throughout history...an, in my opinion, is anything but stupid.

But I understand that you do not want to be involved.

Okay...we will try to make do without you.

[iolo]

Okay.

But my point is that any comment about the existence or non-existence of gods...or the likelihood of the existence or non-existence of gods...

...essentially is a guess.

That is an important point...if correct.

Just looking for the opinion of others about whether it is or isn't...and why the others think that way.

Well, I was brought up Christian Socialist, my father a clergyman, my Mother an atheist, and I was always a bit dubious about 'gods', but went along with the opinion of Jesus of Nazareth, whom, as one of the first socialists, I greatly admire. I came to the conclusion that everyone thought that way back then but it is not a concept we would come up with nowadays if we weren't taught it in youth.

[countryboy]

Come on man, he's not "bashing" anyone.

Dude, I know Frank. Trust me.

[Frank Apisa]

well no....everyone who studies the scriptures knows he said that.....

KNOWS???

There are many people who study scripture who suppose he said it.

There are MANY who think he did not.

Members of the Jesus Seminars...which included bishops and clergy as well as lay religious scholars, have concluded that almost none of the supposed quotes from Jesus in the Gospel of John...were actually uttered by Jesus. That includes the John 14 verse you are speaking of.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Jesus_Seminar

Overall reliability of the five gospels

The Seminar concluded that of the various statements in the "five gospels" attributed to Jesus, only about 18 percent of them were likely uttered by Jesus himself (red or pink). The Gospel of John fared worse than the synoptic gospels, with nearly all its passages attributed to Jesus being judged inauthentic.[14] The Gospel of Thomas includes just two unique sayings that the seminar attributes to Jesus: the empty jar (97 percent) and the assassin (98 percent). Every other probably-authentic or authentic saying has parallels in the synoptics.

only people who reject scripture, and therefore reject Christ think he didn't say it....those folks aren't scholars.....they are simply atheists......

I am not an atheist.

The clergy and scholars of the Jesus Seminar were not atheists either.

Respectfully as possible...you are simply are wrong here.

[Frank Apisa]

Absolutely gorgeous dog.

GORGEOUS!

[Ralph]

No...it is unknown to me.

I cannot even understand why you suppose it "came into" physical reality.

Suppose it didn't?




Beats the hell of me. I do not know seems the only reasonable, logical answer to those questions.

Your "it must have had a beginning" is an interesting guess, though.





I thank you for those guesses...but nothing you said there is logical...or deductive reasoning.



You seem intent on your conclusion...which I think came before all the reasoning. I find that with atheists also.

I cannot "objective, testable, reproducible, constant facts that debunk your guesses...but I don't think the burden of proof is on me.

.

I think you are guessing...and claiming your guesses are not guesses.




The burden of proof, Ralph, is on the person making the assertion. You are asserting "all this" had a beginning...and the beginning was caused by a god.

Where is the proof?

Even in a court of law....prima facie evidences stand as valid evidence of convection until some Objective Testable Evidence is presented that proves the circumstantial evidence to be false.




Thank you for all this. You put lots of effort into this. I'll read other reactions to it...and then maybe get back to you.

So....in spite of Physical Science and he evidence that the Universe is dying a slow expanding death.....IT NEVER CAME INTO EXISTENCE IT IS ETERNAL YET HAS AN ENDING? Really? I lost interest in your snowflake defections on the very first "impossible hypothetical". Its no wonder you are stuck in a paradox.....you have no articulative cognitive logical thought patterns in your mind.

And the fact that you exist, and the Universe exists....does not constitute the prima facie evidence that your very existence requires a CAUSE to that scientific fact? You're not much of a scientist are ya sport? FYI: its not a "guess" when you can objectively reach out and touch the reality that surrounds you. If nature is not capable of defining its own existence....then LOGICALLY there must be a SUPER FORCE TO NATURE...i.e., a Supernatural Force/Cause to the effect known as physical reality.

As I said....until you present evidence that God is not that supernatural force (prima facie/circumstantial truth).....My faith stands firm on the physical law of causality.

[Frank Apisa]

Well, I was brought up Christian Socialist, my father a clergyman, my Mother an atheist, and I was always a bit dubious about 'gods', but went along with the opinion of Jesus of Nazareth, whom, as one of the first socialists, I greatly admire. I came to the conclusion that everyone thought that way back then but it is not a concept we would come up with nowadays if we weren't taught it in youth.

I personally think there are more people who do not identify as Christian...who live lives according to the way Jesus wanted people to live them...

...than there are people who identify as Christian...who do.

Some of the most vocal and vehement of American Christians...seem to live lives that show contempt for the teachings ascribed to Jesus.

[Frank Apisa]

Dude, I know Frank. Trust me.

I am asking for a discussion. If you want to think having that discussion means I am bashing people...nothing I can do about that.

[Frank Apisa]

So....in spite of Physical Science and he evidence that the Universe is dying a slow expanding death.....IT NEVER CAME INTO EXISTENCE IT IS ETERNAL YET HAS AN ENDING?

YOU do not KNOW the universe is approaching death. All you can talk about is the part of the universe we can see.

The greatest scientists in the world CANNOT say for certain that the universe (EXISTENCE) had a beginning...nor that it will have an end.

Really? I lost interest in your snowflake defections on the very first "impossible hypothetical". Its no wonder you are stuck in a paradox.....you have cognitive logical thought patterns in your mind.

Thank you for sharing your rude considerations of me.

And the fact that you exist, and the Universe exists....does not constitute the prima facie evidence that your very existence requires a CAUSE to that scientific fact? You're not much of a scientist are ya sport?

No, I am not a scientist.

I am a person will to acknowledge that I do not know the stuff I do not know.

You ought to give that a try.

[Ralph]

YOU do not KNOW the universe is approaching death. All you can talk about is the part of the universe we can see.

The greatest scientists in the world CANNOT say for certain that the universe (EXISTENCE) had a beginning...nor that it will have an end.





Thank you for sharing your rude considerations of me.




No, I am not a scientist.

I am a person will to acknowledge that I do not know the stuff I do not know.

You ought to give that a try.

I have one suggestion. "IF" you do not want to know the answer, don't ask the question. As all Christians are commanded to give a defense as to why their faith not only rests within their heart but grows with each challenge to that faith. "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, AND ALWAYS BE READY TO GIVE A DEFENSE to WHO ASKS YOU ARE REASON FOR THE HOPE THAT IS IN YOU...with meekness and fear." -- 1 Peter 3:15

That's why I address the fools who actually do not want to learn but simply stir up strife....in an attempt to rob others of a faith they themselves do not posses. I guess its true, "misery loves company..." yet.... I am commanded to defend MY FAITH. As for your faith or the lack thereof, that's for you work out....or not, as I have no dog in your personal hunt.

Yes indeed....If you accept physical science as Objective Truth.....the Universe is dying according to the Laws of Physics. Its not a guess its a quantified reality based upon the potential of the elements that make up this physical reality...all of which are commanded by the LAWS OF PHYSICS. As I said.....you're not much on Science are you sport?

Perhaps your "atheistic" cohorts can explain the simple in a method that a 5 year old can comprehend it. http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/10/us/uni...ing/index.html