BushCo. may be investigated for War Crimes...

[anatta]

the mistake was not backing the Northern Alliance in favor of free elections.
The Taliban are pashtun, and are the most powerful block-but the northern alliance beat them to take kabul.

Northern Alliance takes Kabul
Taliban flee Afghan capital
* UN moves for transitional government
* Mullah Omar tells Taliban to fight
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...an.terrorism15
US president, George Bush, had urged the opposition to stay out of the capital until a new, broad-based government could be formed to replace the Taliban. But Alliance officials said the unexpected Taliban evacuation made it necessary for them to enter the city to maintain public order.

[Rune]

Yep, you are right.
Invading, occupying, and nation-building in hindsight was a stupid ass idea.

Irrespective of whether or not Afghanistan is the "right" war of the wrong war, when the eff is torture ever justified?
Never in the eyes of liberals, international law, and common human decency.

In my entire message board career up until Abu Ghraib, I never would have imagined we would ever even be debating torture. I thought all sentient Americans would be against it.

That was before I saw conservatives and Bush-lovers cheering for torture, excusing it, or minimizing it. It was honestly one of the most eye opening things I remember witnessing during the Bush regime -- the conservative lust for torture.

It isn't even a case of lust for torture.
These idiots worship their fearless leader so much that they have entirely abandoned morals and common decency.

[Cypress]

It isn't even a case of lust for torture.
These idiots worship their fearless leader so much that they have entirely abandoned morals and common decency.

You are right.
We are seeing an analogous situation, a complete lack of basic human morals, when conservatives are backing a rightwing Senate candidate who has a proclivity for cruising malls for teenage girls.

[anatta]

he tide has turned on the Taliban, and turned quickly. U.S. air support has helped the Northern Alliance reclaim half of the country in less than a week, opening the way for Russian logistical support that will likely prevent a Taliban comeback in the north for the foreseeable future. And now that they're no longer the masters of all Afghanistan, many local warlords and even Pasthun tribal leaders currently aligned with the Taliban may be inclined to switch sides.
http://content.time.com/time/nation/...184221,00.html
And yet the turning of the tide raises new political dangers, most evident in the fact that the U.S. is working very hard to restrain the Alliance from actually capturing Kabul. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said Sunday the U.S. could not stop the Alliance seizing the capital because it did not have sufficient troops on the ground to do that — but there was no question of the desirability of keeping them out

[Cypress]

the mistake was not backing the Northern Alliance in favor of free elections.
The Taliban are pashtun, and are the most powerful block-but the northern alliance beat them to take kabul.

snip

In my opinion, this is the mistake you always make.
You have this nation-building, NeoCon mindset in which you think you know best how other countries should be run.

Why not keep your mouth shut, and let people who actually live there - the Afghans - work on it?

George Dumbya's decision to invade and occupy Afghanistan was a strategic blunder for the ages. I admit I had bloodlust after the twin towers came down, and I backed Dumbya at the time.

It became obvious to me about 2004 or 2005 that we really fucked up. Al Qaeda should probably have been dealt with through covert action, intelligence, law enforcement, and the judicious application of American soft power.

[anatta]

In my opinion, this is the mistake you always make.
You have this nation-building, NeoCon mindset in which you think you know best how other countries should be run.

Why not keep your mouth shut, and let people who actually live there - the Afghans - work on it?

George Dumbya's decision to invade and occupy Afghanistan was a strategic blunder for the ages. I admit I had bloodlust after the twin towers came down, and I backed Dumbya at the time.

It became obvious to me about 2004 or 2005 that we really fucked up. Al Qaeda should probably have been dealt with through covert action, intelligence, law enforcement, and the judicious application of American soft power.

nation building was interfering in the Northern Alliance takeover in favor of building their government.

all we had to do was keep up our logistical support (and Russia theirs) and the Taliban would never get back into Kabul.

It wasn't that simple of course, the Taliban would still be strong in the south and Kandahar-anything could happen-and the TTP Taliban would still be a problem
but we would have been supporting the events on the ground -not neocon democratic nationbuilding

[christiefan915]

You are right.
We are seeing an analogous situation, a complete lack of basic human morals, when conservatives are backing a rightwing Senate candidate who has a proclivity for cruising malls for teenage girls.

Wait for the cons to read this and call her a liar.

"A retired Alabama police officer said she was told to keep an eye on Republican Senate candidate Roy Moore because he was known to harass teenage cheerleaders at local school ball games in the 1980s. Ex-Gadsden cop Faye Gray told MSNBC host Andrea Mitchell that rumors of Moore liking young girls were heard on a daily basis and she was even informed that he had been suspended from Gadsden Mall because he would often target young female employees.

“We were also told to watch him at the ball games and make sure that he didn’t hang around the cheerleaders,” Gray said.

“The rumor was that Roy Moore likes young girls,” she added. “It was not only in our department but at the courthouse, too.”

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/poli...icle-1.3648980

[Cypress]

Wait for the cons to read this and call her a liar.

"A retired Alabama police officer said she was told to keep an eye on Republican Senate candidate Roy Moore because he was known to harass teenage cheerleaders at local school ball games in the 1980s. Ex-Gadsden cop Faye Gray told MSNBC host Andrea Mitchell that rumors of Moore liking young girls were heard on a daily basis and she was even informed that he had been suspended from Gadsden Mall because he would often target young female employees.

“We were also told to watch him at the ball games and make sure that he didn’t hang around the cheerleaders,” Gray said.

“The rumor was that Roy Moore likes young girls,” she added. “It was not only in our department but at the courthouse, too.”

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/poli...icle-1.3648980

I don't think anyone even denies anymore that the 30-something Roy Moore was cruising malls to hit on teenage girls and was creeping them out.

Cons will just keep moving the goal posts. It's what they do best!

[Cypress]

nation building was interfering in the Northern Alliance takeover in favor of building their government.

all we had to do was keep up our logistical support (and Russia theirs) and the Taliban would never get back into Kabul.

It wasn't that simple of course, the Taliban would still be strong in the south and Kandahar-anything could happen-and the TTP Taliban would still be a problem
but we would have been supporting the events on the ground -not neocon democratic nationbuilding

You just said we should have "backed" the northern alliance. That is nation building.

From what I remember, the northern alliance was primarily Uzbek and Tajik. Barely even representative of Afghanistan, which is what, eighty percent Pashtun?
If you think the northern alliance was Afghanistan's best hope for stability, you are seriously misinformed. A band of war lords from a small minority population centered in northeastern Afghanistan was never a viable national unifying coalition.

[dukkha]

You just said we should have "backed" the northern alliance. That is nation building.

From what I remember, the northern alliance was primarily Uzbek and Tajik. Barely even representative of Afghanistan, which is what, eighty percent Pashtun?
If you think the northern alliance was Afghanistan's best hope for stability, you are seriously misinformed. A band of war lords from a small minority population centered in northeastern Afghanistan was never a viable national unifying coalition.

No it's not. It's backing events on the ground.
Nationbuilding is pouring in zillions for institution building and guaranteeing a free election by force,
and other civic niceties. That's what is costly to the US in blood and treasure.

we not only did all that, we built their police and army (ANAF) up and led them in missions.
Snce then they have gotten enough battle experience to run their own missions, but we still give critical logistic support.

I am saying cut out that entire middle process,and back the strong faction on the ground when we see it's desirable.
It's very low cost, and if it fails, we aren't drawn in further..rinse and repeat as needed



Pashtun are around 40-50% of the population

[dukkha]

so this ICC indictment is worthless -to finish up the thread

[Cypress]

so this ICC indictment is worthless -to finish up the thread

Regardless of whether or not there are legal teeth to throw BushCo. into jail, there is still the moral imperative to pursue this.

There needs to be a historical record that humanity tried to stand against torture, against the abuse of prisoners, and spoke on behalf of international standards of human decency.

History is going to be looking at who spoke out against torture, every bit as much as it is going to judge those who rationalized torture.

It matters how you are judged by posterity.

And you know who is going to end up looking good to history, regarding torture? Yep...liberals.

You know who history is going to judge as being immoral, soulless, and culpable? That's right....Bush-loving conservatives.

[cawacko]

Regardless of whether or not there are legal teeth to throw BushCo. into jail, there is still the moral imperative to pursue this.

There needs to be a historical record that humanity tried to stand against torture, against the abuse of prisoners, and spoke on behalf of international standards of human decency.

History is going to be looking at who spoke out against torture, every bit as much as it is going to judge those who rationalized torture.

It matters how you are judged by posterity.

And you know who is going to end up looking good to history, regarding torture? Yep...liberals.

You know who history is going to judge as being immoral, soulless, and culpable? That's right....Bush-loving conservatives.

There weren't charges of torture in Afghanistan and like 90% of the country supported us going there. So that's most of our country they will look down upon

[dukkha]

There weren't charges of torture in Afghanistan and like 90% of the country supported us going there. So that's most of our country they will look down upon

Salt Pit is the codename of an isolated clandestine CIA black site prison and interrogation center in Afghanistan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_Pit
The prison was dark at all times, with curtains and painted exterior windows. Loud music was played constantly. The prisoners were kept in total darkness and isolation, with only a bucket for human waste and without sufficient heat in winter months. Nude prisoners were kept in a central area, and walked around as a form of humiliation. The detainees were hosed down while shackled naked, and placed in cold cells. They were subject to sleep deprivation, shackled to bars with their hands above their heads. Four of 20 cells of the prison had bars across the cell to allow this.

One senior interrogator said that his team found a detainee who had been chained in a standing position for 17 days, "as far as we could determine." A senior CIA debriefer told the CIA Inspector General that she heard stories of detainees hung for days on end with their toes barely touching the ground, choked, being deprived of food, and made the subject of a mock assassination. There are almost no detailed records of the detentions and interrogations during the earliest days of the site's existence.

[dukkha]

Regardless of whether or not there are legal teeth to throw BushCo. into jail, there is still the moral imperative to pursue this.

There needs to be a historical record that humanity tried to stand against torture, against the abuse of prisoners, and spoke on behalf of international standards of human decency.

History is going to be looking at who spoke out against torture, every bit as much as it is going to judge those who rationalized torture.

It matters how you are judged by posterity.

And you know who is going to end up looking good to history, regarding torture? Yep...liberals.

You know who history is going to judge as being immoral, soulless, and culpable? That's right....Bush-loving conservatives.

It's all been covered by Senate Intelligence Committee report on CIA torture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate...on_CIA_torture