Challenge to Trump Supporters: What's your alternative to the Deal?

[Huey]

Iran made the most gains when Bush pulled his 'Axis of Evil' bullshit and started invading neighboring countries on a three-country list. They went from, I think, 200 centrifuges to around 19,000. The same people who empowered Iran (under Bush) are now advising Trump. The fucking neocons.

I have heard that. The problem was NK never stopped their program. They did not go from having nothing when bush made the comment to suddenly having testable nukes shortly thereafter. Even NK admitted as such.

What you politically biased folks don't understand is that none of the previous 4 presidents are responsible. NK wants nukes, and they will get them. And along the way they will grav some cash.

[Amadeus]

I have heard that. The problem was NK never stopped their program.

Bush actually reduced or stripped many of the mechanisms that were having an impact on North Korea. And Trump doesn't even have an ambassador to South Korea, which is like, kinda important right about now.

There was never a perfect solution with North Korea, especially post-Iraq invasion. And since diplomacy is the only remotely palatable solution, maybe Trump shouldn't de-pants Tillerson while he's in the middle of diplomacy.

[Getin the ring]

I have heard that. The problem was NK never stopped their program. They did not go from having nothing when bush made the comment to suddenly having testable nukes shortly thereafter. Even NK admitted as such.

What you politically biased folks don't understand is that none of the previous 4 presidents are responsible. NK wants nukes, and they will get them. And along the way they will grav some cash.

That's not necessarily true,
Why on earth would a free world with the ability to stop these two bad players from having Nukes even consider the possibility?

It's mind boggling.
Trump tells them no they can not have Nukes, PERIOD.
Sanctions are a joke, obviously, diplomacy is a joke, obviously, what else is there?
It's mind boggling and pathetic to pretend this situation can be brought down to a safe state that the world can rest under by any means other than a hammer.

The hammer, and it's coming

[Getin the ring]

Bush actually reduced or stripped many of the mechanisms that were having an impact on North Korea. And Trump doesn't even have an ambassador to South Korea, which is like, kinda important right about now.

There was never a perfect solution with North Korea, especially post-Iraq invasion. And since diplomacy is the only remotely palatable solution, maybe Trump shouldn't de-pants Tillerson while he's in the middle of diplomacy.

Diplomacy, are you high?

[Cancel 2018.2]

They want nuclear war.

You're worse than a troll, you are just plain worthless.

[dukkha]

So you say, but all religious extremism within Islam ultimately comes from SA ideology and their 'compromise' with the Wahhbis sect (allowing them to preach their hatred and terrorism within SA, right in the heart of Mecca).

they are the Keeper of the 2 Mosques.

Salaism ( not Wahhabi) goes back to King Faisel - although the 2 have merged.
Interestingly it was Egypt -not SA that exported Salafism to SA.

Understanding the Origins of Wahhabism and Salafism
https://jamestown.org/program/unders...-and-salafism/
Saudi Arabia’s decision to host Egyptian radicals hinges on three factors: the need for qualified educators, Faisal’s struggle against Egyptian-led pan-Arab radicalism, and Saudi openness under King Khaled.

Iranian fundamentalism rises from the increased politicization of the clerics masquerading as modernization
The point I was making is Iran simply will not partner wit the US. That ship has sailed.

In a democratic election, the people of Iran choose the moderate over the choice of the Supreme Leader. *shrugs*

*shrug* indeed. The president has little powers -they belong to the Guardain Council and the Supreme leader

Ask an Iranian prior to Trump if they liked Americans. Most would say yes.

ask Iranians if the liked American prior to 1979 -most would say yes

How often until the nuclear deal did Israel threaten to bomb Iran? Daily? Pretty damned often.

I'm not sure. I know Israel did bomb their reactors 1 time greatly setting back Iran's nuclear program.

One thing I disagree with both Trump and Obama is the importance of Iranian nukes. Of course they are a game changer-
but unlike North Korea where I seriously wonder if lil Kim is a rational actor,i'm sure Iranian leadership IS rational-
so i'm not all that concerned about nukes. I am greatly concerned abut Iranian regional hegemony

I'll take a Shiite radical and over a Wahhabi radical any day of the week. Shiites fight out largely geo-political concerns, not out of a core and unshakable religious belief to form an purely-evil caliphate (very much unlike the caliphate of the Ottoman Empire).

Shi'a fundamentalism is only expressed as a state force in Iran & Bahrain.
But with Iran's colonization of Iraq -look for more and more exporting of subjegation.

The Case of Iranian fundamentalism
http://www.mepc.org/islamic-fundamen...tion-case-iran

[Amadeus]

ask Iranians if the liked American prior to 1979 -most would say yes

Was Iran better when it was ruled by an American-beholden dictator? One that was installed just before Iran gained a foothold in democracy? I thought you were not a neocon, that you hated what the neocons have done?

Go ahead and say you wanted an American installed dictator, anatta.

[Getin the ring]

You're worse than a troll, you are just plain worthless.

I know right,

Buckley and evince both should just find somewhere else to spend their time, like a Disney forum or Harry Potter chat room.

There are times when you try and have a legitimate debate and realize you are actually talking to these two.
If they were your teen agers you'd smack them up side the head and put them in their room until they acted their age.

[dukkha]

Trump supporters say they reject the neo-conservative blunders of the past, then they nut-suck at the bag of John Bolton. Can't say you are not consistent at being inconsistent. It's almost enough to make me forget that Trump supporters (like 90% of Republicans) have no actual ideology, but are lead into ideologies like lemming off a cliff (remember that almost all Bush supporters became Tea Party members, then became Trump supporters -- all ideologies diametrically colliding and contradicting each-other).

Bush is the establishment wing of the Republican party -not Trump.
Trumps gets his support across party lines and also from Tea Party -but never the Bushes

[dukkha]

Was Iran better when it was ruled by an American-beholden dictator? One that was installed just before Iran gained a foothold in democracy? I thought you were not a neocon, that you hated what the neocons have done?

Go ahead and say you wanted an American installed dictator, anatta.

i don't know if it was "better". SAVAK and Shah Pahlavi were certainly gruesome characters.
I guess i'd say they were more pro-western, as Iranian fundamentalism supposedly eschews western values

[Amadeus]

Bush is the establishment wing of the Republican party -not Trump.
Trumps gets his support across party lines and also from Tea Party -but never the Bushes

Trump is being counciled by the likes of John Bolton on Iran. You can't say you hate neocons and then side with John Bolton.

[Amadeus]

i don't know if it was "better". SAVAK and Shah Pahlavi were certainly gruesome characters.
I guess i'd say they were more pro-western, and Iranian fundamentalism supposedly eschews western values

Iran was on the verge of democracy just before America installed the Shah, whose brutality and corruption directly led to the Iranian Revolution. Pretty much all history books agree.

[CFM]

Come up with a better plan for getting Iran to halt their nuclear 'ambitions'. Keeping in mind that Iran paid for the deal with own money, they only got a portion of what they were owed (and would have gotten) in international court, and keeping in mind that even the far-right government of Israel agrees that Iran is in full compliance.

By the way, the deal you come up with has no teeth unless it has intentional support and unless Iran is a willing participant.

Ready, Set, Go.

Sorry, NL, you don't set the parameters. Typical Obama supporter claiming anything the boy did was great for reasons that no longer need be explained. Pucker up.

[Getin the ring]

It's really hard to argue with a die hard liberal, they keep throwing out words like ideology, and neocon, and phrases like American controlled dictator,
as if everything is about conspiracy and rage against the other side.

Instead of common sense you tell me your view I'll tell you mine.

On this very OP, should the conversation not be simply that diplomacy hasn't worked for decades, sanctions havn't worked. Nor will either, ever work.
So braeak it down to, what's left?

Answer is 2 possibilities.
1. NK and Iran get nukes
2. NK and Iran don't get Nukes

which world do you want to live in. NK has already proved they have launch capabilities, they have the weapon, do you not think Iran has both also, but just not parading it out there?

So what do we do, wait until they launch? that's irresponsible, dangerous, pussy-like.

We owe it to our children and our very existence to exercise the might at our disposal, and rid the threat.

[CFM]

Iran was on the verge of democracy just before America installed the Shah, whose brutality and corruption directly led to the Iranian Revolution. Pretty much all history books agree.

History books or history? There is a difference.

History books say Lincoln freed the slaves with the Emancipation Proclamation. That isn't true.