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Thread: More Troops to Afghan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    What's the solution?
    I don't have a solution, I'm simply laying out the options. Trump is effectively ceding leadership to the military, but the responsibility is ultimately on him.

    I'm actually pleased with this discussion because we're actually discussing policy rather than flinging mud. A welcome change.
    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

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    If you don't want to create a "vacuum for terrorists," you're nation-building.

    The same guys who were crowing just last week about Trump's remarkable ability to keep us out of war are now singing his praises for (drumroll)...escalating a war.

    Trump can say literally anything & they'll buy it. It's hard to watch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    Sounds very much like Iraq to me. In fact, if you had said this 12 years ago I'd be unable to discern your strategy from Bush's in Iraq. You achieve stability, and when America leaves, the government decides to turn sectarian-thug and disenfranchise one side of the 'coalition' -- or simply collapses due to rampant corruption. When Obama left Iraq (or rather, was forced to leave), Al-Maliki almost immediately disassembled his military and installed loyalist cronies, and began targeting Sunnis.

    We know how this will end, and Trump is simply putting a band-aid on the problem rather than face a tough decision. Yes, his military advisors KNOW Afghanistan will collapse. The only solution is to nation build and stay there for another 20 years, and hope for the best when America does pull out (after billions/trillions more of an investment, not to mention the blood investment). Trump should be clear about this to the American people.
    BUT. the ANAF are not purged out by sectarianism,and WILL fight, have been fighting and taking big losses.
    as long as we give them tactical backing I don't see it changing, despite the pressures.

    Don't forget the Taliban has come to the negotiation table before- start killing them,and seizing land, and they will comeback

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    Quote Originally Posted by noise View Post
    BUT. the ANAF are not purged out by sectarianism,and WILL fight, have been fighting and taking big losses.
    as long as we give them tactical backing I don't see it changing, despite the pressures.

    Don't forget the Taliban has come to the negotiation table before- start killing them,and seizing land, and they will comeback
    The Taliban's presence in Afghanistan will far outlast the US.
    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    I don't have a solution, I'm simply laying out the options. Trump is effectively ceding leadership to the military, but the responsibility is ultimately on him.

    I'm actually pleased with this discussion because we're actually discussing policy rather than flinging mud. A welcome change.
    Indeed.

    Trump may fail on this, or not. But ceding another nation in the region to ISIS isn't a viable option in my mind, so I'm on board with it for now at least.

    He won't give a date, but I got the sense from the speech that he'll pull out if it comes to it.
    Coup has started. First of many steps. Impeachment will follow ultimately~WB attorney Mark Zaid, January 2017

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    Indeed.

    Trump may fail on this, or not. But ceding another nation in the region to ISIS isn't a viable option in my mind, so I'm on board with it for now at least.

    He won't give a date, but I got the sense from the speech that he'll pull out if it comes to it.
    I don't think Trump will fail, but he won't succeed either. The hard decision I think will have to be made by someone willing to own the collapse of Afghanistan. Or failing that, a miracle.
    In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thing1 View Post
    If you don't want to create a "vacuum for terrorists," you're nation-building.

    The same guys who were crowing just last week about Trump's remarkable ability to keep us out of war are now singing his praises for (drumroll)...escalating a war.

    Trump can say literally anything & they'll buy it. It's hard to watch.
    educate yourself: you can't nationbuild with 14k troops
    Besides the nationbuild has already been done

    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/21/trum...m-efforts.html
    National security analysts say there have been bombings in major cities by the Taliban and other militant groups but that Afghan security forces have done a reasonable job of holding onto the population centers.

    there's a need to increase air support as part of the counter terrorism effort too. "If we sharply increase the number of air sorties, that could do a lot to sustain things on the military side. And it would over time build up an effective Afghan force. So it could accomplish a great deal."
    ugelman said there remain benefits to adding another 3,000 to 4,000 U.S. forces since "it would be able to better plug the gaps in capacity that we see from Afghan security force."

    Kugelman also said it would help the Afghan security forces deal with weaknesses in intelligence collection and problems with air support and air cover.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noise View Post
    educate yourself: you can't nationbuild with 14k troops
    Besides the nationbuild has already been done

    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/21/trum...m-efforts.html
    National security analysts say there have been bombings in major cities by the Taliban and other militant groups but that Afghan security forces have done a reasonable job of holding onto the population centers.

    there's a need to increase air support as part of the counter terrorism effort too. "If we sharply increase the number of air sorties, that could do a lot to sustain things on the military side. And it would over time build up an effective Afghan force. So it could accomplish a great deal."
    ugelman said there remain benefits to adding another 3,000 to 4,000 U.S. forces since "it would be able to better plug the gaps in capacity that we see from Afghan security force."

    Kugelman also said it would help the Afghan security forces deal with weaknesses in intelligence collection and problems with air support and air cover.
    'Nation building' is a kind of catch-all buzz word.

    As you pointed out, the 'nation' is already there. We're not out to overturn it and turn it in to something else.
    Coup has started. First of many steps. Impeachment will follow ultimately~WB attorney Mark Zaid, January 2017

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    Pop quiz: anyone remember how long the Soviets were in Afghanistan?

    Fools. These are people fighting this war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thing1 View Post
    Pop quiz: anyone remember how long the Soviets were in Afghanistan?

    Fools. These are people fighting this war.
    that was an invasion.The Soviets tried to conquer Afghanistan
    It can't be done. Afghanistan is the "Graveyard of the Empires"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thing1 View Post
    If you don't want to create a "vacuum for terrorists," you're nation-building.

    The same guys who were crowing just last week about Trump's remarkable ability to keep us out of war are now singing his praises for (drumroll)...escalating a war.

    Trump can say literally anything & they'll buy it. It's hard to watch.
    Who was crowing about his amazing abilities to keep us out of war? Do you have quotes?

    Trumps biggest mistake in his Presicency was firing Flynn and hiring McMaster

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    Quote Originally Posted by noise View Post
    that was an invasion.The Soviets tried to conquer Afghanistan
    It can't be done. Afghanistan is the "Graveyard of the Empires"
    Thingy has his trite dictums lol.

    You're spoiling it for him.
    Coup has started. First of many steps. Impeachment will follow ultimately~WB attorney Mark Zaid, January 2017

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus View Post
    The Taliban's presence in Afghanistan will far outlast the US.
    "the west has the watches - we got the time" (Taliban)

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    Quote Originally Posted by noise View Post
    you might very well have to stay there. Low level troops to keep the place from becoming a terrorist state.
    Trump didn't start this -nor did Obama ( although Obama micromanaged the war ,and was a shitty general)
    This was a neocon misadventure handed down 16 years now

    we keep troops in Europe, and we've escalated there thanks to our Russiaphobic Cold war 2.0 posture.
    We might have to stay in Afghan indefinately in a counter-terrorist posture.

    It is what it is..If you leave chances are the place will fragment into terrorist strongholds-
    or you welcome back the Taliban who will gladly accept ISIS and foreign fighters in like it was before.

    Our options are limited.
    you run thru scenarios. you try the best outcome, and you play the ball where it lies like golf.
    Or you pull out and the place goes to hell
    Yes well so be it, there are still soldiers in Korea since the armistice was signed in 1953. There were many thousands in Germany during the Cold War.
    Last edited by cancel2 2022; 08-22-2017 at 10:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    Thingy has his trite dictums lol.

    You're spoiling it for him.
    It actually makes me queasy to hear your rhetoric on this & how easily you buy whatever Trump says, and at the same time realizing that people's children are going to die because of Trump's decision.

    And be careful about bringing up any of Obama's or Clinton's conflicts here. I'm always opposed to using our military when there is not a direct, immediate threat to our national security. Everyone should be.

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