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Thread: Terrible news for the Creation Science museum (and Republicans)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    Well, at least you backed off the ‘fact’ bit.
    Wait for it.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    Right: science operates in such a way as it *excludes* certain influences at the outset. Which is all well and good as far as it goes and I’m not arguing to change it.
    What does science exclude at the outset? Science is a set of falsifiable theories.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    But, it also means science can be ‘blinded’ by it own commitment to philosophical naturalism.
    Science isn't 'naturalism'. It is not something that is 'blinded'. Science is a set of falsifiable theories. The only requirement of any theory of science is that it be falsifiable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    And in the instance of abiogenesis it could keep is from discovering the truth.
    The Theory of Abiogenesis isn't a scientific theory. It is not falsifiable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    Regarding the notion that there is ‘nothing exotic about life on the atomic level’: you keep making the same mistake.
    Life is absolutely ‘exotic’ in the sense that it ALWAYS operates according to an informational code in either DNA or RNA.
    A valid argument .
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    Furthermore, the existence of this code *cannot* be explained as a mere consequence of matter and natural laws. Or natural selection.
    Also a valid argument.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
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    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Please expand upon that point in relation to the creation of our universe.

    Panentheism and pantheism imply intelligence. I lean toward ill-defined panentheism.

    A dog is intelligent and not necessarily self-aware.
    A dog is not aware of itself? It never feels hungry? or cold? or hot? or bored?
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    I wouldn't use the term "creation". But I have always floated the ideas of patterns that have always existed. For example, the structures of molecules and atoms. How they are arranged. That's mathematical and doesn't change. It is just there.
    It is not 'mathematical'. It does follow simple rules, however.
    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Does math exist or is it a human invention? That's the question.
    Math is a human invention. It is a closed functional system defined by axioms (the founding rules of the game). From these axioms, proofs extend mathematics, but it MUST always operate within the rules set for it. Hence, the system is closed.
    Only in a closed functional system does the power of prediction exist, and with it, the power of the proof.

    Different Domains of mathematics is created by changing one or more of these axioms.

    Logic is another closed functional system, based upon it's founding axioms.

    Science is an open functional system. A theory may be created on any subject and at any scope. The only requirement is that the theory must be falsifiable.
    Philosophy is an open functional system. Any argument or its reasoning may be presented. The only requirement is that you must present your own arguments and your own reasoning for it. You cannot use the arguments or reasoning of another.
    Religion is an open functional system. Although a specific religion may have a set of rules, arguments extending that religion can take any form.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Math exists, by Proof of Identity (?A->A)
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    The human brain is another area where strictly scientific answers are lacking.
    Science isn't 'answers'. Science is a set of falsifiable theories.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Omar View Post
    Let me give your buddy in the video some help before he gets too far down the rabbit hole lol: math is a consequence of *mind* and mind isn’t explicable in terms of matter and natural law.
    And it’s no coincidence that ‘math works’.
    No coincidence at all. Math works because we designed it that way.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Math is a human invention to understand reality.
    Define 'reality'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    It's a tool.
    That it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    The nature of our Universe remains constant regardless of human interpretation.
    Define the 'nature of our Universe'. Describe how it's constant. Describe this in terms that cannot be observed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    A Qless asshole can tell me he can fly all day long but if he steps off a pier then the constants of our Universe remain constant due to the gravity of the situation.
    Flying requires gravity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Math is a way to calculate his fall.
    It's also used to describe flying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Math is a tool for understanding, it can't change his fall.
    Sure it can. It allows him to create a jet pack, so when he steps off the pier, he doesn't fall anymore. He's flying.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Think about it this way.... humans invent math, correct? Now will aliens arrive at the same equations elsewhere? Is the number pi the same everywhere and will always be derived everywhere? Think Contact.
    Unknown. Contact is fiction.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    Quote Originally Posted by BidenPresident View Post
    How would we know it remains constant?
    It doesn't. Suns are created and destroyed, their planets are created and destroyed, everything is moving, etc.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Pi,
    Can only exist if numbers exist. Numbers can only exist if certain axioms are created and followed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    the Pythagorean theorem,
    A relation of the same numbers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    the gravitational constant,
    is only constant for that user. Natural constants serve to convert a relation to our units of measurement. Nothing more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    the Boltzmann constant
    Another natural constant, serving to convert the relation to our units of measure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    are innate dimensionless/unitless properties
    Natural constants have units and dimensions. The units are the units of measure used at the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    of reality.
    Define 'reality'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    So it seems math exists independently of human logic.
    Of course it does. Logic is a closed functional system, and math is a different closed functional system. They are independent of one another.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Aren't the same principles at work? Why is the hexagon superior to the square in nature?
    A hexagon isn't superior to a square. It's simply another shape.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Math is a tool for divining the truth. <--
    What 'truth' is that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Lugnut design is man following nature's rules.
    What about square lugnuts? They do exist, you know. They work perfectly fine too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch Uncle View Post
    Isn't that man using natural selection as a guide for his tools?
    No. It's simply easier to center a tool on a shape that has more sides than one with fewer sides, particularly if space is restricted for the tool.

    What 'natural selection' are you talking about?
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    You just proved my point.

    Math (hexagons specifically) have always existed before humans were around.
    Nope. The shape may have existed, but only WE call it a 'hexagon'.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet View Post
    be a heretic thumper......its more fun.....
    It’s more fun to keep them guessing lol.
    Coup has started. First of many steps. Impeachment will follow ultimately~WB attorney Mark Zaid, January 2017

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    Quote Originally Posted by Into the Night View Post
    I assume you are referring to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Yes...this is a valid argument against the Theory of Abiogenesis.
    It actually may not involve the 2nd Law unless you can apply it to information systems.
    Coup has started. First of many steps. Impeachment will follow ultimately~WB attorney Mark Zaid, January 2017

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    Quote Originally Posted by Into the Night View Post
    A hexagon isn't superior to a square. It's simply another shape.

    What 'truth' is that?

    What about square lugnuts? They do exist, you know. They work perfectly fine too.

    No. It's simply easier to center a tool on a shape that has more sides than one with fewer sides, particularly if space is restricted for the tool.

    What 'natural selection' are you talking about?
    Well, that would be artificial selection lol.

    You deny NS works? NS is a fact of science. The problem is that it’s *assumed* to apply in abiogenesis and it’s *assumed* to not have any limitations once life begins to exist.

    Those two assumptions are dubious IMO.
    Coup has started. First of many steps. Impeachment will follow ultimately~WB attorney Mark Zaid, January 2017

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    Quote Originally Posted by Into the Night View Post
    Unknown. Contact is fiction.
    Wrong.

    Since math comports with and describes natural laws math has to be universal—unless, the physical constants are different in the next galaxy. And we know they’re not because even galaxies evolve into different shapes according to physical law.

    In fact, it’s inevitable that other sentient beings would discover math and come up with Pi after they invented the wheel. Assuming there are any.

    IOW, you can’t make up a ‘different kind of math’ because it would be useless.
    Coup has started. First of many steps. Impeachment will follow ultimately~WB attorney Mark Zaid, January 2017

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