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Thread: How Delta masters the game of overbooking flights (free markets not force)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperstringTheory View Post
    I agree, it's a protection for the airlines and we should get rid of it.

    It is a form of setting a cap on prices or a limit. It does not set prices.

    In the article Delta freely agrees to prices with passengers typically well below $1350. Those are all free market transactions.

    I am sorry if you and Mott have some sort of knee jerk reaction to the term "free market" but orthodox economists don't share your (Marxists?... idk probably just ignorance) bias.
    no - they are not free market transactions - the market was not free - the airlines knew they did not have to exceed $1,350 - that is textbook opposite of how market prices work. You can't use the term free market for how this works

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mott the Hoople View Post
    It's a silly point. Any solution is better than beating a customers ass and dragging them off the plane. That's my point.
    It's not a silly point at all. Free markets work because of their ability to find prices that satisfy both buyer and seller.

    Also, I think you neglect the pervasiveness of markets. Just about every solution would have involved markets of some sort. All those suggested by USF certainly did. Can you give us an example of a solution that does not involve markets?
    Last edited by Timshel; 04-13-2017 at 11:00 AM.
    Leviticus 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not do him wrong. 34 The stranger that sojourneth with you shall be unto you as the homeborn among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zymurgy View Post
    no - they are not free market transactions - the market was not free - the airlines knew they did not have to exceed $1,350 - that is textbook opposite of how market prices work. You can't use the term free market for how this works

    Oh, I assure you I can. It's the obvious description of the transaction. The buyer and seller both voluntarily agree to a price. That is a free market transaction. I did it again.

    Again, the regulation only constrains the ability of the market to find a price freely. That's what happened here. Then you have an unfree market transaction, or a state controlled one where when they run out of seating someone takes a beating.
    Leviticus 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not do him wrong. 34 The stranger that sojourneth with you shall be unto you as the homeborn among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperstringTheory View Post
    Oh, I assure you I can. It's the obvious description of the transaction. The buyer and seller both voluntarily agree to a price. That is a free market transaction. I did it again.
    as the buyer, I am aware of the protections the seller is afforded by government decree.

    claiming I freely agreed to a price ignores this relationship - which is opposite of free market principles.

    you can keep saying 1+1 = 3 , but that doesn't make it fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zymurgy View Post
    as the buyer, I am aware of the protections the seller is afforded by government decree.

    claiming I freely agreed to a price ignores this relationship - which is opposite of free market principles.

    you can keep saying 1+1 = 3 , but that doesn't make it fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by zymurgy View Post
    the free market doesn't exist here. government regulations already cap payouts based on delay length.

    Companies like Delta are likely exploiting travelers that don't know the rules by not explaining their options to them. I'm certain this guy didn't have his options explained.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/250.5
    First you claim that a passenger's lack of knowledge screws him now knowing hurts. LOL

    I have ignored nothing. In the Delta example they still agree to a price freely. No one is forced to accept a price below $1350. That's a cap. It just limits the markets ability to find a price to which both can agree.

    The cap will only ever be relevant when the airline fails to find anyone that will accept that amount or less. That's when it is no longer a free market transaction. That's when people get beat or ripped off at least.

    You seem to be suggesting that free market transactions only occur in completely unregulated markets. That's just some extremists or absolutist nonsense. Your definition is unsound.

    Free markets, as commonly used, are not free of a government presence. They are free of force. Theft is a transaction that happens without government all the time and in the case of United with it, but it's not a free market transaction.

    The transaction in the Delta article were all freely agreed to and are free market examples. I am sorry if the phrase gives you a rash, makes your knee jerk or has any other effect but any orthodox economist will likely describe those transactions in the same way.
    Leviticus 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not do him wrong. 34 The stranger that sojourneth with you shall be unto you as the homeborn among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperstringTheory View Post
    First you claim that a passenger's lack of knowledge screws him now knowing hurts. LOL

    I have ignored nothing. In the Delta example they still agree to a price freely. No one is forced to accept a price below $1350. That's a cap. It just limits the markets ability to find a price to which both can agree.

    The cap will only ever be relevant when the airline fails to find anyone that will accept that amount or less. That's when it is no longer a free market transaction. That's when people get beat or ripped off at least.

    You seem to be suggesting that free market transactions only occur in completely unregulated markets. That's just some extremists or absolutist nonsense. Your definition is unsound.

    Free markets, as commonly used, are not free of a government presence. They are free of force. Theft is a transaction that happens without government all the time and in the case of United with it, but it's not a free market transaction.

    The transaction in the Delta article were all freely agreed to and are free market examples. I am sorry if the phrase gives you a rash, makes your knee jerk or has any other effect but any orthodox economist will likely describe those transactions in the same way.
    you seem passionate abut arguing in favor of free markets that are actually heavily regulated.

    I don't share your passion. tilt at windmills all you want - I know what freemarkets look like and Delta isn't operating in one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperstringTheory View Post
    United took the statist route and called in big government to bail them out. Delta uses the free market to settle this peacefully, efficiently and in a way that should leave everyone satisfied.
    so long as Delta uses the protections the state provides them - they are also taking the statist route.

    they know they can overbook, and they are protected by the state at a set amount of damages - that is statist too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zymurgy View Post
    you seem passionate abut arguing in favor of free markets that are actually heavily regulated.

    I don't share your passion. tilt at windmills all you want - I know what freemarkets look like and Delta isn't operating in one.

    No, you are just using some extremist/absolutist jargon which never works. The world is not made of only the black and white.

    Free markets are regulated or controlled in some way. The prohibition on force is a control. The requirement that you deliver services for which you accept payment is a control. Further, even under the least regulated markets some transactions are not free market transactions.

    Delta has found a way to facilitate a free market transaction or one where the buyer and seller freely agree to a price. United instead got the government to bail them out and resorted to violence to rob their customer.

    I appreciate that you realize the market would be improved by removing restrictions or making it freer. I fully agree.
    Leviticus 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not do him wrong. 34 The stranger that sojourneth with you shall be unto you as the homeborn among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zymurgy View Post
    why would they pay more? government decree set their legal obligation ceiling $1,350.

    they just try to get passengers to agree to less - I have never heard of them paying more
    I believe I already posted scenarios where they do indeed pay more, if it's profitable to them.
    Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zymurgy View Post
    you can't claim free markets when government intervention sets prices


    Anti Trust laws exist in free markets.
    Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mott the Hoople View Post
    That's not true. There was a follow up story of a first class traveler who was bumped from first class by a more important customer (Uniteds term, not mine.)
    I'd have to read that story, and don't forget....you're talking about bumped. I'm sure the passenger was willing to make a deal. This issue had nothing to do with being bumped. From what I've been reading, 'bumping' occurs before boarding.

    They always take price into consideration. They wouldn't bump a first class passenger who paid $2000, for one who paid $1750 unless there were other circumstances.
    Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    Anti Trust laws exist in free markets.
    nope

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    Quote Originally Posted by zymurgy View Post

    They do. Your source does not even mention the phrase "free market." What is the relevance? You are conflating the term with "laissez faire" or some other view that signifies degree or an extreme about the entire system. That's not what it means.

    Free market is not about degree it is about the specific part of our economy that handles exchange and distribution or the market. When two or more market participants enter into an agreement freely, then you have a free market exchange.

    I have not been attempting to label the bigger system. I am referring the the specific transactions. Delta used free markets to make their transactions peacefully, efficiently and in way that satisfies all and United had the government bail them out.

    Your ignorant trolling does not even address the point.
    Leviticus 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not do him wrong. 34 The stranger that sojourneth with you shall be unto you as the homeborn among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperstringTheory View Post
    They do. Your source does not even mention the phrase "free market." What is the relevance? You are conflating the term with "laissez faire" or some other view that signifies degree or an extreme about the entire system. That's not what it means.

    Free market is not about degree it is about the specific part of our economy that handles exchange and distribution or the market. When two or more market participants enter into an agreement freely, then you have a free market exchange.

    I have not been attempting to label the bigger system. I am referring the the specific transactions. Delta used free markets to make their transactions peacefully, efficiently and in way that satisfies all and United had the government bail them out.

    Your ignorant trolling does not even address the point.

    nope - ignorant trolling - lol. I'm being really nice here - but you are out of your league

    you can side with the position that a free market creates problems and needs to be regulated - but you don't get your cake and eat it.

    in free markets, monopolies can form. Anti-trust laws are clearly moving away from free markets.

    your argument amounts to "water is not wet" you can't win this.

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