Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 45

Thread: Russia, Nato and the return to cold war

  1. #1 | Top
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    life
    Posts
    52,794
    Thanks
    13,341
    Thanked 22,579 Times in 15,814 Posts
    Groans
    249
    Groaned 1,951 Times in 1,862 Posts

    Default Russia, Nato and the return to cold war

    With the demise of the communist-led countries of eastern Europe and the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact, the world breathed easier and we all felt that we would no longer stand permanently on the edge of a nuclear Armageddon.
    The post-cold war escalation of Nato activities and the encirclement of Russia threatens, once again, to take us back to those precarious times . One doesn’t have to be an apologist for Putin to recognise that Russia is being demonised and the recent reinforcement of Nato troops in Estonia and Romania will only increase Russia’s fear of western intentions and ratchet up the danger of conflict.

    The idea that Putin’s Russia poses a threat to western Europe is a myth concocted by the US and the military-industrial complex in order to assert its worldwide hegemony.
    Russia’s effective intervention in Syria to prop up Assad and to prevent the forces of Islamic fundamentalism taking over does not fit the script written by the US and its allies, so there is a renewed determination to punish them – an extremely dangerous tactic that could backfire catastrophically.
    We need to demand that our government plays no role in this unnecessary escalation.
    John Green
    London

  2. #2 | Top
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    life
    Posts
    52,794
    Thanks
    13,341
    Thanked 22,579 Times in 15,814 Posts
    Groans
    249
    Groaned 1,951 Times in 1,862 Posts

    Default

    Your article “Cold war 2.0” (25 October) suggested that “extended sanctions could weaken Putin’s grip on power”. My impression was that this had been western policy towards Russia for more than 10 years now, during which time President Putin’s popularity within the country has never fallen below 60% and at present “languishes” at 82%. I think it was Einstein who defined insanity as “doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”.
    Paul Hewitson
    Berlin, Germany
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-to-a-cold-war

  3. #3 | Top
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    life
    Posts
    52,794
    Thanks
    13,341
    Thanked 22,579 Times in 15,814 Posts
    Groans
    249
    Groaned 1,951 Times in 1,862 Posts

    Default

    Throughout his presidency, Barack Obama has viewed Russia largely through the prism of its ailing economy and early on concluded Moscow was essentially a weak adversary trying to compensate for its impotence with shows of military bravado. Putin was “pursuing 19th-century policies with 20th-century weapons in the 21st century”, the president told at least one foreign visitor.

    During his 2012 re-election campaign, when his opponent Mitt Romney suggested Russia might be the country’s “No 1 geopolitical foe”, the president led the derision.

    “The 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because the cold war’s been over for 20 years,” Obama said in one of the presidential debates.

    More recently, he has adjusted his rhetoric to claim Putin was over-stretching Moscow’s capacity and would ultimately become trapped in Syria as the US was trapped in Iraq and Afghanistan. The word “quagmire” began to appear more frequently in the talking points being distributed by senior administration officials.

    A President Clinton would take a more hawkish view, and she would find support in the Senate. Ben Cardin, the ranking Democrat on the Senate foreign relations committee and a Russia specialist, said the US needed to revisit its whole approach to Russia. He said: “Through its words and deeds, it appears Vladimir Putin’s Russia is not a partner for peace.”

    That view has extended to the US military. General Tommy Franks, head of the US army, said: “I think we were all optimistic. Perhaps [we] misread certain things, but also in the last 15 years our focus has been on Iraq and Afghanistan. We reduced the volume of people who could speak and read Russian. We were so busy trying to produce Arabic and Pashto speakers. We took our eye off the ball.”

    ultimately the key decisions will be taken in the new White House. Anthony Cordesman, a strategic analyst at the Centre for Strategic and International Studies, said the new administration must confront three realities. “First, Russia is a now broad strategic rival and is likely to remain so at least as long as Putin is in power. Second, the US can’t rebalance to Asia away from Europe or the Middle East. And third, short of being chased off the stage, the United States will have to play out a weak hand in Syria to limit and contain Russian influence.”

    “There are no easy answers to the Russians,” said a Washington-based European diplomat. “They are deploying such aggressive rhetoric and policy. During the cold war there was an accepted vocabulary between the sides. There was a game, there was an accepted game,” the diplomat said. “Now the danger is there is no order. There is no accepted language. We are not talking the same language”.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...toric-struggle

  4. #4 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    57,788
    Thanks
    35,476
    Thanked 50,287 Times in 27,095 Posts
    Groans
    22
    Groaned 2,975 Times in 2,692 Posts

    Default

    Never heard of this "John Green" from London, and do not find his arguments and writing compelling in any way.

    The premise that the US belligerently "encircled" Russia post-Yeltsin sounds like Kremlin propaganda to me. Nobody put a gun to the heads of Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, et al to force them to join NATO. Those countries, and their citizens overwhelmingly wanted to join NATO of their own free will. If Russia would ever adopt democratic institutions, and meet membership criteria for NATO, I would have no problem having them joining NATO either. I am a big fan of vodka!

    As for the military industrial complex, I don't think "John Green" in London is in a position to lecture liberals on the dangers of militarism and hegemony. There are a lot of former Iraq War supporters - like Donald Drumpf - who minions belatedly endeavor to position him as the champion of east-wet détente. Laughable when you really think about it. Drumpf is on record advocating a nuclear arms race.

    As far as Europe is concerned, there is a well established Record of one country acting belligerently, aggressive, and militaristic towards its European neighbors. I suggest "John Green" review what Russia has done in Georgia, Chechnya, Crimea, and Ukraine.
    Last edited by Cypress; 03-12-2017 at 11:16 PM. Reason: i suck at typing

  5. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Cypress For This Post:

    blackascoal (03-13-2017), christiefan915 (03-14-2017), Phantasmal (03-13-2017), Rune (03-13-2017)

  6. #5 | Top
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    life
    Posts
    52,794
    Thanks
    13,341
    Thanked 22,579 Times in 15,814 Posts
    Groans
    249
    Groaned 1,951 Times in 1,862 Posts

    Default

    why not join NATO? there are no downsides for those little countries, but more importantly James Baker did say after German unification that NATO would not expand eastwards. Look at a map to see how far they did.

    Trump is not advocating a nuclear arms race -he is advocating modernization -but nukes and detente
    are not the only reason for detente. The sheer number of conventional weapons pointed at each other
    is a costly arms race..

    Yes Russia is pushing back on NATO expansionism,,that's hardly surprising

  7. #6 | Top
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    49,883
    Thanks
    14,463
    Thanked 32,101 Times in 21,165 Posts
    Groans
    6
    Groaned 1,307 Times in 1,235 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Never heard of this "John Green" from London, and do not find his arguments and writing compelling in any way.

    The premise that the US belligerently "encircled" Russia post-Yeltsin sounds like Kremlin propaganda to me. Nobody put a gun to the heads of Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, et al to force them to join NATO. Those countries, and their citizens overwhelmingly wanted to join NATO of their own free will. If Russia would ever adopt democratic institutions, and meet membership criteria for NATO, I would have no problem having them joining NATO either. I am a big fan of vodka!

    As for the military industrial complex, I don't think "John Green" in London is in a position to lecture liberals on the dangers of militarism and hegemony. There are a lot of former Iraq War supporters - like Donald Drumpf - who minions belatedly endeavor to position him as the champion of east-wet détente. Laughable when you really think about it. Drumpf is on record advocating a nuclear arms race.

    As far as Europe is concerned, there is a well established Record of one country acting belligerently, aggressive, and militaristic towards its European neighbors. I suggest "John Green" review what Russia has done in Georgia, Chechnya, Crimea, and Ukraine.
    Those former Soviet satellites aren't in NATO.

    Putin is a 'good' dictator in realpolitik terms: he's not insane and can be reasoned with: though, like all dictators, he can be slippery. It would be insane for Russia to make a move on NATO. It would be the end of Russia.

    In contrast, the little NK dictator is insane, literally. We should be thankful he's not in the Kremlin, because it would totally change the calculus in Europe.

    The realpolitik question is how much is it worth to us to keep Putin from threatening the former Soviet Satellites? Isn't radical Islam our first concern? To my knowledge, Russia hasn't attacked us, they weren't behind 9/11 and they have no plans, that anyone is aware of, of attacking us and starting WWIII.

    That would be insane and Putin isn't insane.
    Coup has started. First of many steps. Impeachment will follow ultimately~WB attorney Mark Zaid, January 2017

  8. #7 | Top
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    life
    Posts
    52,794
    Thanks
    13,341
    Thanked 22,579 Times in 15,814 Posts
    Groans
    249
    Groaned 1,951 Times in 1,862 Posts

    Default

    I'm pretty sure there are some former Eastern Block countries in NATO..
    I'm not an expert on NATO. But I can look at maps.


  9. #8 | Top
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    49,883
    Thanks
    14,463
    Thanked 32,101 Times in 21,165 Posts
    Groans
    6
    Groaned 1,307 Times in 1,235 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by anatta View Post
    I'm pretty sure there are some former Eastern Block countries in NATO..
    I'm not an expert on NATO. But I can look at maps.

    Apparently I'm not an expert either lol.

    But aren't Ukraine and Crimea part of Russia, culturally? Poland, East Germany etc, not so much? What I was getting at is I'm under the impression Putin's motives aren't open-ended empire so much as bringing the culturally Russian countries back into Russia.

    I may be wrong about that too lol. But if that's the case, he's no threat to NATO and certainly not to Western Europe.
    Coup has started. First of many steps. Impeachment will follow ultimately~WB attorney Mark Zaid, January 2017

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Darth Omar For This Post:

    anatta (03-13-2017)

  11. #9 | Top
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    life
    Posts
    52,794
    Thanks
    13,341
    Thanked 22,579 Times in 15,814 Posts
    Groans
    249
    Groaned 1,951 Times in 1,862 Posts

    Default

    ^ yes..at least 1/2 of Ukraine speaks Russian as first language -and the signage is in Russian
    and don't forget western meddling in Uk's elections

  12. #10 | Top
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Federal Way, WA
    Posts
    68,352
    Thanks
    18,375
    Thanked 18,674 Times in 14,047 Posts
    Groans
    628
    Groaned 1,136 Times in 1,080 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Never heard of this "John Green" from London, and do not find his arguments and writing compelling in any way.

    The premise that the US belligerently "encircled" Russia post-Yeltsin sounds like Kremlin propaganda to me. Nobody put a gun to the heads of Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, et al to force them to join NATO. Those countries, and their citizens overwhelmingly wanted to join NATO of their own free will. If Russia would ever adopt democratic institutions, and meet membership criteria for NATO, I would have no problem having them joining NATO either. I am a big fan of vodka!

    As for the military industrial complex, I don't think "John Green" in London is in a position to lecture liberals on the dangers of militarism and hegemony. There are a lot of former Iraq War supporters - like Donald Drumpf - who minions belatedly endeavor to position him as the champion of east-wet détente. Laughable when you really think about it. Drumpf is on record advocating a nuclear arms race.

    As far as Europe is concerned, there is a well established Record of one country acting belligerently, aggressive, and militaristic towards its European neighbors. I suggest "John Green" review what Russia has done in Georgia, Chechnya, Crimea, and Ukraine.
    Welcome back. I'm still pretty skeptical of Russia's motives, which puts me in the camp that anatta would call the John McCain Warmonger crowd.

  13. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Minister of Truth For This Post:

    christiefan915 (03-14-2017), Phantasmal (03-13-2017), Rune (03-13-2017)

  14. #11 | Top
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    28,583
    Thanks
    10,247
    Thanked 13,294 Times in 8,007 Posts
    Groans
    12
    Groaned 1,132 Times in 1,059 Posts
    Blog Entries
    10

    Default

    More false angst about Russia and the 'cold war' .. Boohoo.

    The Russian people live like paupers and beggars. The Russian economy is dismal and still tanking .. and Putin is in no shape to engage in any real war with the West.

    Millions more Russians living in poverty as economic crisis bites
    Nearly 20 million now surviving on wages which are below the poverty threshold according to latest state statistics
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...c-crisis-bites

    Inside Vladimir Putin's new Russia, where corrupt tycoons plunder billions while 19.2 million live in poverty
    Beggars on the street are commonplace and in Moscow alone 90,000 women have turned to prostitution to afford food
    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...russia-9976578

    Libyans had a higher standard of living than Russians.

    Russia has already lost the economic war with the West .. now it engages in a new propaganda war in its desperate attempt to gain leverage .. and its traitorous agents are among us.

    The West needs no 'reset' with Russia. The Russian system will collapse on its own.

    Decline, Not Collapse: The Bleak Prospects for Russia’s Economy
    February 02, 2017


    Russia faces bleak economic prospects for the next few years. It may be a case of managed decline in which the government appeases social and political demands by tapping the big reserves it accumulated during the boom years with oil and gas exports. But there is also a smaller possibility of a more serious economic breakdown or collapse. A proper analysis requires consideration of a number of key and often overlooked features of Russia’s post-Soviet economy.
    http://carnegie.ru/2017/02/02/declin...nomy-pub-67865
    AMERICAN HISTORY ITSELF IS A TESTAMENT TO THE STRENGTH AND RESILIENCE OF AFRICAN PEOPLE. WE, ALONG WITH THE COURGE AND SACRIFICES OF CONSCIOUS WHITE AMERICANS, LIKE VIOLA LIUZZO, EVERETT DIRKSEN, AND MANY OTHERS, HAVE FOUGHT AND DIED TOGETHER FOR OUR FREEDOM, AND FOR OUR SURVIVAL.

    In America, rights are are not determined by what is just, fair, equitable, honest, nor by what Jesus would do. Rights are determined ONLY by what you can DEMAND.

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to blackascoal For This Post:

    Bill (03-13-2017), Rune (03-13-2017)

  16. #12 | Top
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    life
    Posts
    52,794
    Thanks
    13,341
    Thanked 22,579 Times in 15,814 Posts
    Groans
    249
    Groaned 1,951 Times in 1,862 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlorate View Post
    Welcome back. I'm still pretty skeptical of Russia's motives, which puts me in the camp that anatta would call the John McCain Warmonger crowd.
    i'm not unskeptical..lol.
    But Russia -contrary to Obama's statement is much more then a regional power.

    It's a global military force. It's spreading influence into the middle east beyond traditional Syria.
    It's allying with both the Iranian ( who are expansionists) and making new inroads into Libya as well as Egypt.
    It is allying with the most powerful faction/government in Libya ( General Hiftar) -and if Hiftar can
    win the inevitable next upcoming Civil War there...bingo..it's got a client state in N. Africa as ell as partnering with Egypt.

    All of this plus the Eurasian connections to China

    Behind China and Russia's 'Special Relationship'
    The relationship between China and Russia has, therefore, evolved into intensified cooperation in political areas in the last couple of years. Chief among those developments was the announcement on May 8, 2015 in Moscow, on the occasion of the annual parade commemorating the end of World War II, of the planned integration of the Chinese-led BRI with Russia’s Eurasian Economic Union (EEU).
    http://thediplomat.com/2016/12/behin...-relationship/

    Real Russia-China Connection That Should Worry America
    http://nationalinterest.org/feature/...-america-19125
    However, the Yamal natural gas project gets top billing in this analysis as the “pearl” of the Arctic treasures. Grabbing the attention of the Chinese shipbuilding industry, moreover, this analysis relates a market projection that at least 20 Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG) tankers will ply the route from Yamal through Arctic waters and down to East Asia, providing China with a stable supply of 3 million tons of LNG each year. Other articles in this series detail aspects of contemporary Russian ice-breaker development and discuss other key shipping imperatives, such as state-of-the-art port logistics that will interest Chinese companies. Su offers a Chinese perspective on the Northern Sea Route [северный морской путь]: “… the majority of this sea route traverses Russia’s near seas. While this could generate some fees, the overall safety/security is assured.” Moreover, such cooperative efforts to develop the Arctic fit easily into the “Belt and Road Initiative,” (BRI) according to this analysis, as BRI aims to create infrastructure linkages that span Asia’s vastness, to include apparently its northern vastness.

  17. #13 | Top
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    life
    Posts
    52,794
    Thanks
    13,341
    Thanked 22,579 Times in 15,814 Posts
    Groans
    249
    Groaned 1,951 Times in 1,862 Posts

    Default

    ....aand all this above shows just why Trump's idea of playing the Russian card ( like Nixon did the China card)-
    is slipping away because of the Democrats/John McCain/the Intelligence Community's built in fear and loathing of Russia.

    Trump still has a chance for realignment..but the Russiaphobia runs deep inside the Deep State.
    What Obama left us is a chessboard where Putin made enormous gains that will not be reversed -however we an stop Putin from consolidating his gambits into real permanent positions.

  18. #14 | Top
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    49,883
    Thanks
    14,463
    Thanked 32,101 Times in 21,165 Posts
    Groans
    6
    Groaned 1,307 Times in 1,235 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chlorate View Post
    Welcome back. I'm still pretty skeptical of Russia's motives, which puts me in the camp that anatta would call the John McCain Warmonger crowd.
    I'm skeptical of the Muslim Brotherhood's motives but they don't get any ink.

    McCain is senile.
    Coup has started. First of many steps. Impeachment will follow ultimately~WB attorney Mark Zaid, January 2017

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to Darth Omar For This Post:

    anatta (03-13-2017)

  20. #15 | Top
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    State of Bliss
    Posts
    31,007
    Thanks
    7,095
    Thanked 5,196 Times in 3,829 Posts
    Groans
    433
    Groaned 261 Times in 257 Posts
    Blog Entries
    5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by blackascoal View Post
    More false angst about Russia and the 'cold war' .. Boohoo.

    The Russian people live like paupers and beggars. The Russian economy is dismal and still tanking .. and Putin is in no shape to engage in any real war with the West.

    Millions more Russians living in poverty as economic crisis bites
    Nearly 20 million now surviving on wages which are below the poverty threshold according to latest state statistics
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...c-crisis-bites

    Inside Vladimir Putin's new Russia, where corrupt tycoons plunder billions while 19.2 million live in poverty
    Beggars on the street are commonplace and in Moscow alone 90,000 women have turned to prostitution to afford food
    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...russia-9976578

    Libyans had a higher standard of living than Russians.

    Russia has already lost the economic war with the West .. now it engages in a new propaganda war in its desperate attempt to gain leverage .. and its traitorous agents are among us.

    The West needs no 'reset' with Russia. The Russian system will collapse on its own.

    Decline, Not Collapse: The Bleak Prospects for Russia’s Economy
    February 02, 2017


    Russia faces bleak economic prospects for the next few years. It may be a case of managed decline in which the government appeases social and political demands by tapping the big reserves it accumulated during the boom years with oil and gas exports. But there is also a smaller possibility of a more serious economic breakdown or collapse. A proper analysis requires consideration of a number of key and often overlooked features of Russia’s post-Soviet economy.
    http://carnegie.ru/2017/02/02/declin...nomy-pub-67865
    We must accept the Russian meddling in our affairs & elections as the only alternative is a return to the cold war

    "There is no question former President Trump bears moral responsibility. His supporters stormed the Capitol because of the unhinged falsehoods he shouted into the world’s largest megaphone," McConnell wrote. "His behavior during and after the chaos was also unconscionable, from attacking Vice President Mike Pence during the riot to praising the criminals after it ended."



Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01-13-2017, 12:05 AM
  2. Are we in a new cold war with russia?
    By tsuke in forum Current Events Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 08-01-2016, 03:03 PM
  3. Replies: 25
    Last Post: 07-28-2016, 09:42 AM
  4. Putin' On The Nato
    By Cancel 2016.11 in forum Current Events Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 07-21-2016, 10:39 AM
  5. a not so cold war with russia?
    By Schadenfreude in forum Current Events Forum
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-24-2011, 04:56 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Rules

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •