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Thread: McCain/Graham obsessing over making Russia enemy

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    "it's hilarious you never condemn Iran's ballistic missiles" a #73

    I don't recall having seen the topic here, & me responding to it.

    I deduce you're conflating sear's priorities with McCain's.
    I may to some degree share McCain's patriotism.

    But you seem to confuse my explaining McCain's position, with me being McCain's ideological twin.
    That's a mistake. Presidential candidate sear would NEVER have selected Governor Palin as a runningmate.

    Q.
    Why is Putin deploying a cruise missile? ( he's been doing development for a long time).
    The answer is not "Putin is a murderous KGB thug" it's probably because the INF treaty hasn't been attended to
    by Obama/Putin. They are basically on autopilot, and that's how we've wound up in Cold War 2.0.


    Russia is as obligated to abide by international law and treaty obligations as any other nation on Earth.

    So why are you making excuses for Putin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sear View Post
    "it's hilarious you never condemn Iran's ballistic missiles" a #73

    I don't recall having seen the topic here, & me responding to it.

    I deduce you're conflating sear's priorities with McCain's.
    I may to some degree share McCain's patriotism.

    But you seem to confuse my explaining McCain's position, with me being McCain's ideological twin.
    That's a mistake. Presidential candidate sear would NEVER have selected Governor Palin as a runningmate.

    Q.
    Why is Putin deploying a cruise missile? ( he's been doing development for a long time).
    The answer is not "Putin is a murderous KGB thug" it's probably because the INF treaty hasn't been attended to
    by Obama/Putin. They are basically on autopilot, and that's how we've wound up in Cold War 2.0.


    Russia is as obligated to abide by international law and treaty obligations as any other nation on Earth.

    So why are you making excuses for Putin?
    Ok, substitute "Democrats" in regards to Iran instead of sear. not a word about ongoing Iranian missile tech -not even while under Obama
    ++
    and the US is not supposed to meddle in the Ukraine, and NATO is not supposed to expand..etc...etc.

    It's to the point nobody's word means anything -relations have deteriorated to getting away with what each side can with no consideration for breaking treaties /words/understandings.

    Trump said he "inherited a mess" - and that he did.

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    "and the US is not supposed to meddle in the Ukraine"

    I doubt the U.S. has done so to any fraction of the degree Russia has.

    If the United States of America under President Obama or President Trump has U.S. military troops stationed in Ukraine, please publish their name, rank, & serial number so we can get them out.

    "and NATO is not supposed to expand..etc...etc."

    a) Says who?

    b) Why not?

    c) According to what authority?

    d) Russia's diddlings in Crimea, Ukraine, and Syria are military. Imposed by martial force, or the threat thereof.
    NATO expansion is not military, it's political.
    NATO expansion is not inflicted on a people, it's invited by them and or their government.

    It is a fundamental error for you to conflate military aggression with peaceful political alliances.

    "It's to the point nobody's word means anything -relations have deteriorated to getting away with what each side can with no consideration for breaking treaties /words/understandings."

    That's Senator McCain's explicit point precisely.
    “As Vladimir Putin continues his testing of the new administration, Russia’s deployment of nuclear-tipped ground-launched cruise missiles in violation of the INF Treaty is a significant military threat to U.S. forces in Europe and our NATO allies. Congress has made clear in the last two defense authorization bills that Russia’s treaty violation requires a meaningful response." Senator McCain

    http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/...4-5E0EE216544A
    "Trump said he "inherited a mess" - and that he did."

    Piffle!

    Trump took over following a president Trump was not in ideological sync with.

    It's Obama that inherited the mess.

    On inauguration day 2009 the U.S. was at Wars.
    Our private sector was losing about 800K jobs per month.
    The Bush / Cheney / Paulson $700 $Billion $TARP program didn't solve the Bush administration recession, it merely staunched the $hemorrhage long enough for the 3 of them to get the $#@! out of town (DC).

    The Reagan standard is: "Are you better off ...?"
    Absolutely!
    By quantifiable criteria the United States is substantially better off after 8 years of Obama. Obama inherited a mess from Bush, and cleaned it up.

    Trump's merely whining. And it's thin gruel. Trump fusses like a spoiled Girl Scout.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sear View Post
    "and the US is not supposed to meddle in the Ukraine"

    I doubt the U.S. has done so to any fraction of the degree Russia has.
    Ukraine crisis: Putin adviser accuses US of meddling
    an audio recording has been posted online, which is purported to be a hacked phone conversation between Ms Nuland and US Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt, in which the female speaker dismisses EU efforts to resolve the crisis, using an expletive.

    The two speakers also discuss frankly the merits of the three main Ukrainian opposition leaders in the conversation
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26068994

    here is Victoria Nuland in Independence square



    "and NATO is not supposed to expand..etc...etc."

    a) Says who?

    b) Why not?

    c) According to what authority?

    d) Russia's diddlings in Crimea, Ukraine, and Syria are military. Imposed by martial force, or the threat thereof.
    NATO expansion is not military, it's political.
    NATO expansion is not inflicted on a people, it's invited by them and or their government.

    It is a fundamental error for you to conflate military aggression with peaceful political alliances.
    PEACEFUL military alliances?? Not military?? ON WHAT PLANET?
    NATO is by it's very nature a military alliance..take a read of Article 5 pledging military response by all
    if just 1 is attacked.

    NATO has jammed up Putin despite James Bakers promise to Gorbachev
    following German re-unification not to expand beyond Germany!

    "It's to the point nobody's word means anything -relations have deteriorated to getting away with what each side can with no consideration for breaking treaties /words/understandings."

    That's Senator McCain's explicit point precisely.
    McCain only looks at Russian violations-
    he completely overlooks how we got here.
    What would you be saying if we had Russian troops in Cuba/our borders?

    "Trump said he "inherited a mess" - and that he did."

    Piffle!

    Trump took over following a president Trump was not in ideological sync with.

    It's Obama that inherited the mess.
    Obama inherited an economic mess- i give him credit for
    greatly improving the situation
    He screwed up everything he touched on foreign policy -Trump's inheritance

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    a #77

    This topic is: McCain/Graham obsessing over making Russia enemy

    If it interests you, why don't YOU start a new topic about whatever it is about Iran that's them in a twist, and if it's worthy, I'll join in.

    "PEACEFUL military alliances?? Not military?? ON WHAT PLANET?"

    I believe YOU are the one that introduced that phrase.
    YOU are characterizing the military alliance. You are welcome to do so. But it doesn't invalidate my point about the PEACEFUL means NATO uses to expand.

    "NATO is by it's very nature a military alliance.." Captain Obvious

    Obviously.

    BUT !!

    My comment did not in any way address the nature of the military organization. Perhaps this will clear up the mystery for you:

    NATO is military. BUT !!

    nato EXPANSION is not military.


    NATO doesn't expand by rolling tanks, brandishing weaponry, and imposing its will on conquered land and peoples as the Soviets did.

    NATO expands by peaceful process; not with military troops, but with POLITICIANS!!

    I know of no NATO member nation that is not a NATO member by MUTUAL agreement. So far as I know, anyone that wants out of NATO is free to leave. Neither Stalin, nor Kruschev, nor Breznev ever said that about the U.S.S.R.

    Though clearly military, NATO is SUBSTANTIALLY a DEFENSIVE military alliance.
    Why would that be necessary?

    Because the Soviet Union, and unfortunately post Cold War Russia, is an expansionist military aggressor.

    And so the West needs a military force powerful enough to hold expansionist Russia in Czech.

    "PEACEFUL military alliances?? Not military?? ON WHAT PLANET?"

    I'm ASTOUNDED that you didn't know about the NATO membership process !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sear View Post
    a #77

    This topic is: McCain/Graham obsessing over making Russia enemy

    If it interests you, why don't YOU start a new topic about whatever it is about Iran that's them in a twist, and if it's worthy, I'll join in.

    "PEACEFUL military alliances?? Not military?? ON WHAT PLANET?"

    I believe YOU are the one that introduced that phrase.
    YOU are characterizing the military alliance. You are welcome to do so. But it doesn't invalidate my point about the PEACEFUL means NATO uses to expand.

    "NATO is by it's very nature a military alliance.." Captain Obvious

    Obviously.

    BUT !!

    My comment did not in any way address the nature of the military organization. Perhaps this will clear up the mystery for you:

    NATO is military. BUT !!

    nato EXPANSION is not military.


    NATO doesn't expand by rolling tanks, brandishing weaponry, and imposing its will on conquered land and peoples as the Soviets did.

    NATO expands by peaceful process; not with military troops, but with POLITICIANS!!

    I know of no NATO member nation that is not a NATO member by MUTUAL agreement. So far as I know, anyone that wants out of NATO is free to leave. Neither Stalin, nor Kruschev, nor Breznev ever said that about the U.S.S.R.

    Though clearly military, NATO is SUBSTANTIALLY a DEFENSIVE military alliance.
    Why would that be necessary?

    Because the Soviet Union, and unfortunately post Cold War Russia, is an expansionist military aggressor.

    And so the West needs a military force powerful enough to hold expansionist Russia in Czech.

    "PEACEFUL military alliances?? Not military?? ON WHAT PLANET?"

    I'm ASTOUNDED that you didn't know about the NATO membership process !!
    Russia hasn't gone to war with Europe -the only reason it annexed Crimea and federalized the Uk. is because of NATO expansion.
    NATO has swallowed up eastern Europe and even most of the Balkans..
    Do you think Putin has an eye on the Balkans?

    NATO members get the benefits of treated magnanimously by USA -few military bases,
    economic dependency, very little interference in the internal politics. It's a sweet ride -everybody wants in.

    But NATO expansion is causative of the new Cold War 2.0, Putin is reacting to a hostile Europe driven by American hegemony.

    NATO was fine when it was western Europe and Germany..
    Maybe even Poland since that state is the battlefield between west and east.

    Russia is not the Soviet Union despite your careless interchanging of nomenclature.

    Russia doesn't want to conquer Europe -it's not in it's interest.
    It does want western banking and technology - to diversify, and drill in the Arctic
    ( sanctions removed Exxon's high tech drilling aid for the Arctic).

    NATO expansion is an enemy of peaceful Russian/European relations.
    without expansion economic ties would flourish, and Putin would be sanquine with access to Sevastopol
    like he was before our meddling in the UK

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    We are in accord on formal NATO expansion.
    sear has vehemently opposed NATO expansion literally since the day The Wall fell.

    "Russia is not the Soviet Union despite your careless interchanging of nomenclature."

    To the contrary.
    I exercised deliberate precision in making the distinction.
    I DID use both terms.
    But that was necessary not despite the distinction, but BECAUSE of it. The terms are NOT interchangeable.

    However:
    to be clearer:
    During the Cold War the Soviets were expansionist. AND !!
    After the Cold War, Russia is expansionist; in both cases, with military implications.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackascoal View Post
    How incredibly IGNORANT.

    McCain and Graham aren't making Russia the enemy .. they ARE the enemy .. a truth the entire world already knows .. including the Russians.


    YOU ARE A FOOL. YOU HAVE FALLEN for deep state lies. "We've always been at war with eurasia"


    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Mott the Hoople View Post
    Grind is basically right
    Quote Originally Posted by Phantasmal View Post
    Grind’s got you beat by miles. He is very intelligent.

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    This is a propaganda campaign. It's a big lie. Keep saying russia russia russia over and over again. The american mind is being primed for war. Look how easy it was for russia to go from 1980's foreign policy to the number 1 geopolitical threat in just 4 years. To the point where it's "obvious" russia is our enemy as BAC has said in this thread. You dopey fucking idiot, you fell for their ruse. You are a perfect sheep.

    Russia... russia... russia..

    russia... russia... russia...


    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Mott the Hoople View Post
    Grind is basically right
    Quote Originally Posted by Phantasmal View Post
    Grind’s got you beat by miles. He is very intelligent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    The world is upside down to me. The right loved and liberals hated when Reagan called the Russians the evil empire. In 2012 Romney rightfully called out Russia and Obama said his 'the '80's called and wants their foreign policy back' and liberals ate it up.

    Now we have people on the right supporting Russia and liberals declaring them an enemy? What the hell is going on???
    liberals are fucking idiot sheep, that's what's going on.

    And most conservatives love a good war regardless the reason.

    The deep state has capitalized on this beautifully.


    ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Mott the Hoople View Post
    Grind is basically right
    Quote Originally Posted by Phantasmal View Post
    Grind’s got you beat by miles. He is very intelligent.

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    "liberals are fucking idiot sheep" k #85

    You mean "liberals" like the 2008 Republican U.S. presidential candidate nominee, Senator John McCain (R-AZ)?



    PEDAL HARDER SARAH !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thing1 View Post
    So much wrongness in here. "Putin is no angel" - you got that right. Understatement of the year.

    And what are you going to "hang around our necks"? Trump is President, and Republicans control the universe. Good luck w/ trying to pin anything on the left.
    They will do it anyway using their self constructed bubble feedback loop circle jerk fake news machine.
    Last edited by Micawber; 02-26-2017 at 07:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anatta View Post
    can we stick with at least post 1989 US/Russian relations?
    where is the balance of power now?
    back to cold war status-how is that helpful to anyone in Europe/the US or Russia?
    I'll circle back around with you one that when there is a peaceful transition of power through democratic means, they stop assassinating journalists, and have a free press. Why do you want to be warm and fuzzy with what seems to me to be nothing more than a giant organized crime syndicate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by K I L L View Post

    YOU ARE A FOOL. YOU HAVE FALLEN for deep state lies. "We've always been at war with eurasia"
    it's always the red menace.China or Russia or China and Russia.
    How come we don't sanction the Chinese over their S China Sea expansionism? Tibet?

    They have fired at US ships, they are literally invading the littoral states resources and boundaries.
    They have exiled the Dalai Lama -legit leader of Tibet,and destroyed it's culture

    It is the deep state. China is terrible but Russia-oh them awful Russians- are the blood thirsty Stalinists
    Nevermind Mao's mass exterminations -they are against yellow people - the Russians have blue eyes!

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    Quote Originally Posted by anatta View Post
    it's always the red menace.China or Russia or China and Russia.
    How come we don't sanction the Chinese over their S China Sea expansionism? Tibet?

    They have fired at US ships, they are literally invading the littoral states resources and boundaries.
    They have exiled the Dalai Lama -legit leader of Tibet,and destroyed it's culture

    It is the deep state. China is terrible but Russia-oh them awful Russians- are the blood thirsty Stalinists
    Nevermind Mao's mass exterminations -they are against yellow people - the Russians have blue eyes!
    You contradicted yourself twice in this rant. Go back to free association using dinosaur cosmic rock bands as props. At least its nostalgic.

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