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Thread: Fascism- Stop Saying It, Stupid

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    Default Fascism- Stop Saying It, Stupid

    I am sick of people using the word "fascism" simply because it sounds bad to be accused of....if you can't think of an actual argument against someone/thing/government, just shut the fuck up.

    This goes for both sides of politics--- the left uses fascist far too much against the right, and the right uses fascist far too much against Muslims.

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    Islamofascist is a retarded term. It is merely way for the war mongers to present it s a global threat, by likening it to a power structure most people are familiar with. Its like calling them IslamoCommunists, which would be equally as stupid.

    Fascism is what it is, an extreme form of statism. And the radical factions of Islam are certainly not statists. Well, except for Asshat.

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    The trouble with using the "fascist" label as an attack on your political opponents comes from widely divergent views on exactly what a "fascist" might stand for.

    This public confusion stems from at least 2 factors:

    First, fascist governments themselves often differed on their exact philosophies. While Mussolini could well be considered the first fascist leader, his version of fascism differed in several aspects from the best known fascist leader, Adolf Hitler. Further complicating matters is the fact that both Hitler and Mussolini held wildly conflicting and contradictory ideas at different times of their lives. In their youth, both were passionate communist activists. Years later, they would torture and persecute communist sympathizers. Assembling an easy definition of what "fascism" stands for as an ideology is not a simple task given the contradictory policies of the few historical examples of fascist nations.

    Secondly, modern political culture obscures and reshapes the positions of the fascists to fit its own needs. Pundits of all ideological stripes are quick to paint fascism as something supported by their opponents. Every ideology attempts to take a different moral away from the storyesque rise and fall of fascism.

    To a communist or socialist, the fascists were murderers and tools of the bourgeouise. Because Hitler did not abolish private property and persecuted communists (despite having been one himself in youth), economic leftists are quick to paint him as their ideological opposite; conveniently ignoring the massive government involvement in the German economy and the organization of industries by the state in a hybrid economic model called corporatism.

    To a libertarian, the fascists represent the absolute opposite side of the political spectrum; the most blind supporters of a powerful central government that regulated virtually every aspect of the lives of its citizens. Libertarians are quick to intentionally overlook Hitler's defense of private property and hostility toward communists, two traits which they also share.

    "Fascist" is a powerful political attack, and we must expect that we will continue to see it hurled in the political arena for quite some time. No one wants to be connected to the horrors of the Holocaust and the evil perpetrated by Mussolini and Hitler, even through shared positions.

    But it is also an unfair one. Every self-identified Communist government in the history of the world has at one time or another been involved in the wholesale slaughter, starvation, or persecution of elements of its population. But it would be a childish ploy for me to say that because modern liberals share communist positions about nationalized healthcare and domestic issues, they support the slaughter done in the name of communism. We should make more of an effort to avoid the intellectual laziness of attempting to discredit an ideology by highlighting one of its controversial leaders.

    Modern Liberals and Communists should not be forced to defend Stalin's persecution of his countrymen.

    Free marketeers and libertarians should not be compelled to defend the legacy of Augusto Pinochet, a butcher and ultracapitalist.

    In summary I don't take issue with the use of "fascist" as a political attack, so long as it is employed with some degree of objectivity and understanding of the contradiction in terms it represents.
    There is much to be said in favour of modern journalism. By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, it keeps us in touch with the ignorance of the community.

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    This thread's keynote post - great read.

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    I actually think I'm in love with Mussolini's Fascism (although Warren you should note that Hitler's fascism is often referred to as Nazism to differentiate between his ideology and Mussolini's), but I think I love my liberties too much to ever embrace it.

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    Mussolini made up fascism as he went along. It changed several years before he was deposed and would likely have changed again if he had stayed in power.

    To Mussolini, fascism meant he would pursue whatever policies he felt like at the time, and the Italian people would follow him loyally.

    Like Hitler did in Germany, Mussolini was grasping for a romanticized revision of national history. It was largely fictitious and designed to stimulate Italian nationalism.

    Reading Mussolini's own writings reveal a conflicted and contradictory personality.
    Last edited by Epicurus; 11-12-2007 at 03:22 AM.
    There is much to be said in favour of modern journalism. By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, it keeps us in touch with the ignorance of the community.

    -Oscar Wilde

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    Fascist is a great word to use. It's pretty descriptive. If someone want to bicker about it that's fine. Then they can get to what exactly they're talking about if someone questions the use of the label.

    Many here have tried to LOCK fascism into certain things, like it must be nationalistic to be fascism. That's obviously not true, because the reigning fascism today is internationalist. Internationalist Fascism exists.
    Morality is a set of attitudes and behaviors which facilitate voluntary, cooperative and mutually beneficial relationships. --AssHatZombie

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    Quote Originally Posted by AssHatZombie View Post
    Fascist is a great word to use. It's pretty descriptive. If someone want to bicker about it that's fine. Then they can get to what exactly they're talking about if someone questions the use of the label.

    Many here have tried to LOCK fascism into certain things, like it must be nationalistic to be fascism. That's obviously not true, because the reigning fascism today is internationalist. Internationalist Fascism exists.
    Give me your definition of fascism as an ideology and system of government, please.
    There is much to be said in favour of modern journalism. By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, it keeps us in touch with the ignorance of the community.

    -Oscar Wilde

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren View Post
    Give me your definition of fascism as an ideology and system of government, please.
    The union of government and business interests into a monolithic power structure. Whether this occurs by government taking over business or business taking over government is irrelevant.

    Fascist: A great word which should be used often.
    Morality is a set of attitudes and behaviors which facilitate voluntary, cooperative and mutually beneficial relationships. --AssHatZombie

    "Men think in herds, go mad in herds, but recover their senses one by one." -- Charles Mackay

    "AssHat rocks and is fun to have around." -- Damocles

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    Quote Originally Posted by AssHatZombie View Post
    The union of government and business interests into a monolithic power structure. Whether this occurs by government taking over business or business taking over government is irrelevant.
    What differentiates it from the union of government and business as described under communism, then?

    Also, what characteristics would a government show before you classified them as "fascist"?
    There is much to be said in favour of modern journalism. By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, it keeps us in touch with the ignorance of the community.

    -Oscar Wilde

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren View Post
    What differentiates it from the union of government and business as described under communism, then?
    not a lot. Traditionally communism has been considered to be more internationalist in nature. I believe communism could be accurately referred to as internationalist fascism.

    Also, what characteristics would a government show before you classified them as "fascist"?
    The union of government and business in a monolithic power structure.
    Morality is a set of attitudes and behaviors which facilitate voluntary, cooperative and mutually beneficial relationships. --AssHatZombie

    "Men think in herds, go mad in herds, but recover their senses one by one." -- Charles Mackay

    "AssHat rocks and is fun to have around." -- Damocles

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    Oh another difference, when I'm dealing with neocons I call it communism; when I'm dealing with liberals I call it fascism. These are the previously inserted frames. They can be used for good instead of evil.
    Morality is a set of attitudes and behaviors which facilitate voluntary, cooperative and mutually beneficial relationships. --AssHatZombie

    "Men think in herds, go mad in herds, but recover their senses one by one." -- Charles Mackay

    "AssHat rocks and is fun to have around." -- Damocles

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    Quote Originally Posted by AssHatZombie View Post
    not a lot.
    Fair enough, though I think the thousands of Communist sympathizers executed under fascist regimes would take issue with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by AssHatZombie View Post
    The union of government and business in a monolithic power structure.
    That's quite vague. If NAZI Germany is our standing model of a fascist nation, we must reexamine the traditional view that fascists support direct state control of all aspects of life, including the economy. Hitler never directly nationalized German industries, he simply made them accountable to the state on issues like production quotas.

    Also, we must remember that this was a time of war, and question whether these same measures would have been taken under different circumstances; but any speculations as to what peacetime fascism might look like are indeed merely speculations. One of the few consistent tenets of fascism under both Mussolini and Hitler was the idea of permanent war as a way of motivating the populace.
    There is much to be said in favour of modern journalism. By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, it keeps us in touch with the ignorance of the community.

    -Oscar Wilde

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    I think when the labor related wishes of managers of private firms have the power to modulate immigration law, fascism may be occurring.
    Morality is a set of attitudes and behaviors which facilitate voluntary, cooperative and mutually beneficial relationships. --AssHatZombie

    "Men think in herds, go mad in herds, but recover their senses one by one." -- Charles Mackay

    "AssHat rocks and is fun to have around." -- Damocles

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    Quote Originally Posted by AssHatZombie View Post
    I think when the labor related wishes of managers of private firms have the power to modulate immigration law, fascism may be occurring.
    Did you miss out on the Colonial era slave trade?

    Great Britain was at one point virtually a puppet for the interests of the East India Trading Company. I think it's safe to say that it is not unprecedented for business interests to shape the policies and decisions of government.
    There is much to be said in favour of modern journalism. By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, it keeps us in touch with the ignorance of the community.

    -Oscar Wilde

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