Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 49

Thread: On Socialism Reconsidered, midcan5’s APP Thread:

  1. #16 | Top
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    116
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 18 Times in 14 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Dear Vepr 12:

    Did that! And thanks!

    Although this discussion originates with midcan5's post on the APP forum, I don't want to 'double post;' that seems to be poor form. But I will post there a quick note indicating my reply to the article midcan5 references.

    Thank you for your work at JPP.

    http://www.justplainpolitics.com/for...eferrerid=6197

    IMT

  2. #17 | Top
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    61,491
    Thanks
    1,041
    Thanked 3,617 Times in 2,816 Posts
    Groans
    1,008
    Groaned 1,328 Times in 1,225 Posts

    Default

    what is socialism, except for state run capitalism? it's the redistribution of wealth to 'create a classless society', while ignoring the inevitable result of a two tier citizenship status. that of serf and that of ruler. and the crimes of genocide were committed solely to protect that two tier system. using government of force to solve crises such as poverty has never worked and will never work. the only thing that solves issues of economic inequality is for people to have the opportunity to use their skills in creating their own wealth while having the human decency to help others in developing those skills.
    A sad commentary on we, as a people, and our viewpoint of our freedom can be summed up like this. We have liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, yet those very people look at Constitutionalists as radical and extreme.................so those liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans must believe that the constitution is radical and extreme.

  3. #18 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    93,682
    Thanks
    9,768
    Thanked 33,633 Times in 21,492 Posts
    Groans
    290
    Groaned 5,633 Times in 5,141 Posts
    Blog Entries
    5

    Default

    You asses seem to talk about socialism and capitalism as black and white.

    There are no purely socialist or capitalist governments. We are all along a continuum. The question is how far to one side or the other do we want to be and on what issues.

    We have socialist programs in the United States that almost all of our elected officials agree with keeping.
    4,487

    18 U.S. Code § 2071 - Concealment, removal, or mutilation generally
    44 U.S.C. 2202 - The United States shall reserve and retain complete ownership, possession, and control of Presidential records; and such records shall be administered in accordance with the provisions of this chapter.


    LOCK HIM UP!

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Jarod For This Post:

    evince (02-08-2016)

  5. #19 | Top
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Federal Way, WA
    Posts
    68,352
    Thanks
    18,375
    Thanked 18,674 Times in 14,047 Posts
    Groans
    628
    Groaned 1,136 Times in 1,080 Posts

  6. #20 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Realville
    Posts
    31,850
    Thanks
    1,475
    Thanked 6,520 Times in 5,217 Posts
    Groans
    779
    Groaned 2,477 Times in 2,299 Posts

    Default On Socialism Reconsidered, midcan5’s APP Thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by evince View Post
    no you evil sociopath


    It is the con wet dream
    Unfettered socialism has never worked

  7. #21 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    183,528
    Thanks
    71,923
    Thanked 35,503 Times in 27,049 Posts
    Groans
    53
    Groaned 19,565 Times in 18,156 Posts
    Blog Entries
    16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IMT View Post
    Dear evince:

    As I see it, elections are a waste of hard-earned taxpayer money with all the democratic import of a national beauty pageant.

    Elections are an instrument of social control. They are based on the premise as simple as it is ingenious as it is effective -- that if you THINK you are 'free,' you will not try to BECOME free. You will instead be a nice, quiet, passive, manageable, doting, respectful little tax-payer, a model citizen who lives a second-hand life tailored to fit the interests of professional politicians and their bourgeoisie masters. I, unfortunately, am none of those fine things.

    Nor do I do consent to be retained as a political hostage to the maleficent machinations of what is ostensibly my own system of governance. For what compelling reasons ought I to do otherwise?

    If no massive alteration of governance is needed, if nothing is so bad that a good election can't fix it, I see little point to your Republican chicanery rhetoric.

    I draw parallels to pre-WWI conditions in Europe. I name specific practices of gigantic, financial fraud. I provide quotes from 75 and 95 years past that find fruition in present trends. I indicate our nation's catastrophic indebtedness.

    And in reply?

    I see no attempt to confront grapple with this. With slight of hand, all is brushed off -- no analysis of global economic crisis, no reckoning with increasingly tumultous international relations or to war as standing policy, no acknowledgment of the class relations behind these developments.

    Instead, you proffer a well-managed election which, like some cosmic, enchanted wand, will clear from view the rubbage of history and all that drives it.

    Seriously, evince?

    Shouldn't you at least describe the policies which [supposedly] will make all this bad stuff vanish, and why they will do this?

    It is one thing to 'plead the [electoral] myth; it is quite another to explain how and why this most assuredly will happen.

    Unless or until you do so, you give me no reason NOT to assert that Capitalism DOESN'T answer the charges made because it HAS no answer.

    And, your full-throated support of Capitalism insufficiently differentiates your party and the Republican Party [for me at least] to warrant an election. If you won't offer more, I suggest that you make your peace with the Republican Party. Other than the way it administers elections, methinks you're there already.

    Against your three decades of 'problematic elections' assertion, I offer a perspective which, if some 160 years past, resonates with many instantly.

    I refer to Marx' dictum that every few years, the ruling class let us decide which bourgeoisie faction gets to bully, order and oppress us.

    IMT
    I did not read beyond this point


    YOU are a traitor to this nation


    YOU are the enemy

  8. #22 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    183,528
    Thanks
    71,923
    Thanked 35,503 Times in 27,049 Posts
    Groans
    53
    Groaned 19,565 Times in 18,156 Posts
    Blog Entries
    16

  9. #23 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    183,528
    Thanks
    71,923
    Thanked 35,503 Times in 27,049 Posts
    Groans
    53
    Groaned 19,565 Times in 18,156 Posts
    Blog Entries
    16

  10. #24 | Top
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    116
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 18 Times in 14 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Dear SmarterthanYou:

    As I said earlier, that so-called ‘socialism’ is indeed state-run capitalism. And as I also said, it was a stellar failure. So depending on how we define ‘socialism,’ we may be in more agreement on this one than not.

    While serfdom relates to a pre-Capitalist system, your analogy has merit. But I’m unclear on what follows. As I’m reading it, a ‘classless society’ and a ‘two-tiered’ system seem to stand in contradiction. And if so, we agree again.

    But against that reading, I can’t tell if you reject [1] a classless society or [2], a ‘two-tiered’ citizen status, or if you [3] reject both. If you reject both, am I misreading you to think you hold them in opposition? And if [1] and [2] are opposed, I don’t see how one [a classless society] produces or otherwise inevitably results in the other [a two-tiered system].

    But taking up your analogy [if I read you correctly], this ‘two-tier citizenship status’ expresses the Marxian concept of the bourgeoisie [the ownership/investment/banking class] and the proletariat [the working/serf/disenfranchised class]. The two-tiered status you reference is the basis for Marxist analysis and class struggle.

    That government power never resolves crises shows good [perhaps keen] insight, SmarterthanYou, though I believe that the point needs further definition and elucidation to stand.

    When you say that issues of inequality are resolved solely as people have opportunity to use their skills and create wealth in context of supporting human development with decency and dignity, you state in your own words a core, socialist principle. Indeed, some would offer this AS a working definition of the socialist vision.

    As I understand Marxian analysis, resources/productive_capacity are organized in ownership/investment/banking class interests. And it is very much in the interests of the lords of industry, commerce and banking to see that opportunity to use skills to create wealth can occur SOLELY on terms acceptable to the bourgeoisie ALONE. And since the political class [government] serves essentially as clerks to uphold their bourgeoisie masters, of COURSE government will fix nothing!

    Under any administration, government is pledged to serve the interests of their overlords, the bourgeoisie class. And we wonder why government doesn’t work?

    Where does the socialist program differ? A genuinely socialist program demands that on the issues [community and resource development, education, health, labor, transportation, communications, etc.], the power of decision must be located in the same communities that must live by these decisions. Meaning? Communities of people are responsible to find solutions to their problems. But as long as society is organized on the basis of bourgeoisie interests, that cannot be.

    And to invest the power of decision in communities, the enthralling domination of the ruling class must be broken. Only then can power be transferred to the citizenry. As I see it, a politically empowered community is a classless society.

    Thank you for a good answer, SmarterthanYou.

    http://www.justplainpolitics.com/for...eferrerid=6197

    IMT
    Last edited by IMT; 02-08-2016 at 10:42 PM. Reason: Subject-verb agreement issue.

  11. #25 | Top
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    116
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 18 Times in 14 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Dear Jarod:

    'Asses seem to talk...' LOTF! What can I say? This is...well...a political forum?

    Take care!

    http://www.justplainpolitics.com/for...eferrerid=6197

    IMT

  12. #26 | Top
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    116
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 18 Times in 14 Posts
    Groans
    0
    Groaned 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default

    Dear evince:

    You're courteous to a fault!

    The truth is, my behavioral malevolence far surpasses what your overly-gracious portraiture suggests! Also, your refusal to read is a sharp debating tactic! That saves you the need to grapple with questions. Bravo!

    Now correct me if I’m wrong, evince, but you argue here that ongoing chicanery has:

    '...cheated the people in elections for 30 years,' and that 'we have not had REAL Democracy for 30 years.'

    http://www.justplainpolitics.com/for...eferrerid=6197

    IMT
    Last edited by IMT; 02-08-2016 at 11:04 PM. Reason: Phrase added.

  13. #27 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    183,528
    Thanks
    71,923
    Thanked 35,503 Times in 27,049 Posts
    Groans
    53
    Groaned 19,565 Times in 18,156 Posts
    Blog Entries
    16

  14. #28 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    183,528
    Thanks
    71,923
    Thanked 35,503 Times in 27,049 Posts
    Groans
    53
    Groaned 19,565 Times in 18,156 Posts
    Blog Entries
    16

  15. #29 | Top
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    183,528
    Thanks
    71,923
    Thanked 35,503 Times in 27,049 Posts
    Groans
    53
    Groaned 19,565 Times in 18,156 Posts
    Blog Entries
    16

  16. #30 | Top
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    3,691
    Thanks
    2,300
    Thanked 1,256 Times in 960 Posts
    Groans
    1
    Groaned 137 Times in 127 Posts
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Community socialism, as described by IMT, is not dissimilar to our founding principle of a Republic with powers afforded to states-

Similar Threads

  1. Gotta love the Fed - EVINCE/DESH IS THREAD BANNED FROM THIS THREAD
    By canceled.2021.1 in forum Current Events Forum
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-13-2018, 11:34 PM
  2. APP - Socialism Reconsidered
    By midcan5 in forum Above Plain Politics Forum
    Replies: 82
    Last Post: 08-31-2017, 09:02 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Rules

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •