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Thread: Crimea.

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    Default Crimea.

    I am not a professor of Crimean history or the politics of this spot of land, however I do know a few things and have studied Russian history.

    Crimea, a very strategic spot for oil distribution, has been the subject of a chess match for power for a very long time. It was a part of the former USSR most of that time as its importance rose in the early part of this century. Granted, Crimea was an important shipping center prior to the importance of oil, but not as strategic of a location as it is in modern terms.

    So is what Russia has done so terrible or are we upset because we are losing access to an important strategic location?

    Since the end of the USSR, Ukraine has been the subject of a great tug-a-war between Eastern and Western interests. Crimea was a location that many ethnic Russians had migrated to during the Soviet period. When Ukraine fell apart a month or so ago the area came under anarchy. (Now what caused Ukraine to fall apart, who pushed and who pulled and who set that up is a legit question) While this area was under anarchy Russia saw a land directly on its border with a majority of ethnic Russians in anarchy. They sent in troops and set up an election. The new Ukraine had intended to do the same thing, after rebel factions took extra constitutional action by throwing out their government, they were taking action to set up a vote that would have favored their interests.

    So here we sit, to me there is no "moral" side, only the side that is in our best interests. What should we do, press for our advantage, which is the same thing Russia did, or relax and not get involved.

    What I hate to see is this ranting about how we have a moral obligation to stop the evil Putin and evil Russia, any action we take is just as biased and self interested as the action they are taking.
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    Gee I don't know Jarod; how would you have felt if NATO sent in troops and annexed Crimea from the Ukraine?

    I am amused by your argument that this is about "western interests" versus "Russian" when "western interests" are that Ukrainian territory should not be invaded by a neighboring nation via an illegal invasion.

    DUH
    "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Unless you just can't stand the idea of "ni**ers" teaching white kids.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarod View Post
    What I hate to see is this ranting about how we have a moral obligation to stop the evil Putin and evil Russia, any action we take is just as biased and self interested as the action they are taking.
    This is another of your famous strawmen Jarod; who is ranting about a moral obligation to stop the "evil" Putin and "evil" Russia? Answer=No One.
    "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."


    A lie doesn't become the truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good just because it is accepted by a majority.
    Author: Booker T. Washington



    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Unless you just can't stand the idea of "ni**ers" teaching white kids.


    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Address the topic, not other posters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarod View Post
    I am not a professor of Crimean history or the politics of this spot of land, however I do know a few things and have studied Russian history.

    Crimea, a very strategic spot for oil distribution, has been the subject of a chess match for power for a very long time. It was a part of the former USSR most of that time as its importance rose in the early part of this century. Granted, Crimea was an important shipping center prior to the importance of oil, but not as strategic of a location as it is in modern terms.

    So is what Russia has done so terrible or are we upset because we are losing access to an important strategic location?

    Since the end of the USSR, Ukraine has been the subject of a great tug-a-war between Eastern and Western interests. Crimea was a location that many ethnic Russians had migrated to during the Soviet period. When Ukraine fell apart a month or so ago the area came under anarchy. (Now what caused Ukraine to fall apart, who pushed and who pulled and who set that up is a legit question) While this area was under anarchy Russia saw a land directly on its border with a majority of ethnic Russians in anarchy. They sent in troops and set up an election. The new Ukraine had intended to do the same thing, after rebel factions took extra constitutional action by throwing out their government, they were taking action to set up a vote that would have favored their interests.

    So here we sit, to me there is no "moral" side, only the side that is in our best interests. What should we do, press for our advantage, which is the same thing Russia did, or relax and not get involved.

    What I hate to see is this ranting about how we have a moral obligation to stop the evil Putin and evil Russia, any action we take is just as biased and self interested as the action they are taking.

    The people of Crimea voted, until we found that it was fixed or they were pressured to vote for annexation, then we, as a Democratic Republic must respect this vote.

    I say we don't get involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sardonic View Post
    The people of Crimea voted, until we found that it was fixed or they were pressured to vote for annexation, then we, as a Democratic Republic must respect this vote.

    I say we don't get involved.
    Anytime the voting results exceed accepted norms; you can bet on irregularities. The only voting results that equate to 96% pro anything occur in dictatorship or Communist nations.

    It doesnt take more than two brain cells to recognize that there is something wrong when the Russian population is below 50% and yet the results indicated 96% voter support.
    "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."


    A lie doesn't become the truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good just because it is accepted by a majority.
    Author: Booker T. Washington



    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Unless you just can't stand the idea of "ni**ers" teaching white kids.


    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Address the topic, not other posters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sardonic View Post
    The people of Crimea voted, until we found that it was fixed or they were pressured to vote for annexation, then we, as a Democratic Republic must respect this vote.

    I say we don't get involved.
    It doesn't matter if they voted on it or not. Are you willing to declare WW3 for the Crimea? Because that's what's being proposed. When we pushed NATO right up to the Russian border we made commitments to those countries that an attack on them would be considered as an attack on us. Except when we did so we did under the assumption that Russia would always be weak. Well they're not. So those advocate military response are saying the Crimean people are worth a nuclear war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twerk Master Miley View Post
    It doesn't matter if they voted on it or not. Are you willing to declare WW3 for the Crimea? Because that's what's being proposed. When we pushed NATO right up to the Russian border we made commitments to those countries that an attack on them would be considered as an attack on us. Except when we did so we did under the assumption that Russia would always be weak. Well they're not. So those advocate military response are saying the Crimean people are worth a nuclear war.
    Obviously not, since my last sentence stated we should not get involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sardonic View Post
    Obviously not, since my last sentence stated we should not get involved.
    It was meant as a general statement.

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    1) I do not thing this will result in nuclear war
    2) I don't think it will result in military conflict (outside of a potential Ukraine vs. Russia, in which case it will be relatively short)
    3) Europe has too much dependence upon Russian Nat Gas, they are likely to rattle sabers, toss some economic sanctions on Russia to appear they are doing something and that will be the end of it.

    4) The US will likely toss some sanctions out (more than already done) and we may be more severe than the EU (because we don't depend on Russian nat gas). We may rattle some sabers or send Biden to Poland to show Russia how 'tough' and 'serious' we are... but that too will likely be it. There is nothing in it for us. The ports Russia is mainly interested in have been under their control since the Soviet Union took them around WWII.

    5) Garud is still a straw man making moron.
    Quote from Cypress:
    "Scientists don't use "averages". Maybe armchair supertools on message boards ascribe some meaning to "averages" between two random data points. And maybe clueless amatuers "draw a straight line" through two random end data points to define a "trend". Experts don't.

    They use mean annual and five year means in trend analysis. Don't tell me I have to explain the difference to you. "

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twerk Master Miley View Post
    It doesn't matter if they voted on it or not. Are you willing to declare WW3 for the Crimea? Because that's what's being proposed. When we pushed NATO right up to the Russian border we made commitments to those countries that an attack on them would be considered as an attack on us. Except when we did so we did under the assumption that Russia would always be weak. Well they're not. So those advocate military response are saying the Crimean people are worth a nuclear war.
    Apparently you're better sticking with "twerking" rather than coherent political debate. NO ONE is arguing for WW III; that is a weak and dimwitted strawman claim.

    PS; Ukraine is not a member of NATO or the EU.
    "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."


    A lie doesn't become the truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good just because it is accepted by a majority.
    Author: Booker T. Washington



    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Unless you just can't stand the idea of "ni**ers" teaching white kids.


    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Address the topic, not other posters.

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    The people in the Crimea want to be Russian. End of story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truth Detector View Post
    Apparently you're better sticking with "twerking" rather than coherent political debate. NO ONE is arguing for WW III; that is a weak and dimwitted strawman claim.

    PS; Ukraine is not a member of NATO or the EU.
    They were set to join last year, contingent on military standardization.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfreak View Post
    5) Garud is still a straw man making moron.
    BINGO!!
    "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."


    A lie doesn't become the truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good just because it is accepted by a majority.
    Author: Booker T. Washington



    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Unless you just can't stand the idea of "ni**ers" teaching white kids.


    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Address the topic, not other posters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twerk Master Miley View Post
    They were set to join last year, contingent on military standardization.
    Once again; they are NOT part of NATO OR the EU. What part of they are NOT do you find difficult.

    But let's examine your meaning of claiming they "might" become a member of EITHER; how is that justification for invasion? After all, what threat does NATO or the EU pose towards the Russian Republic?

    Answer; it does not unless you are a paranoid former Soviet KGB member who is currently presiding over Russia and think you can advance Russian hegemony at the expense of sovereignty.
    "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."


    A lie doesn't become the truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good just because it is accepted by a majority.
    Author: Booker T. Washington



    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Unless you just can't stand the idea of "ni**ers" teaching white kids.


    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Address the topic, not other posters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iolo View Post
    The people in the Crimea want to be Russian. End of story.
    ....because you and Putin say so. LMAO
    "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."


    A lie doesn't become the truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good just because it is accepted by a majority.
    Author: Booker T. Washington



    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Unless you just can't stand the idea of "ni**ers" teaching white kids.


    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Address the topic, not other posters.

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