Morality without God

[Timshel]

Conservatives have it backwards. The universal condemnation of things like stealing and murder are not a sign that religion shapes our morality, but that our morality shapes our religions. We don't need God to know why this or that act is wrong. We sense it at a deeper level as do our closest relatives.

Of course, as humans with a somewhat higher logical capacity (i.e., not the conservatives) we are capable of making inferences and deriving laws.


http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2013/03/21/174830095/frans-de-waals-bottom-up-morality-were-not-good-because-of-god

In a book coming out next week called The Bonobo and the Atheist, primatologist Frans de Waal argues that morality is built into our species. Rather than coming to us top-down from God, or any other external source, morality for de Waal springs bottom-up from our emotions and our day-to-day social interactions, which themselves evolved from foundations in animal societies.

For 30 years, de Waal has authored books about apes and monkey that open our eyes to the bottom-up origins of our human behaviors, ranging from politics to empathy. In this, his 10th volume, he extends that perspective by writing, "It wasn't God who introduced us to morality; rather, it was the other way around. God was put into place to help us live the way we felt we ought to."

"The way we felt we ought to" has a long evolutionary history, so that de Waal's thesis depends crucially on numerous and convincing examples from our closest living relatives.
Azalea, a trisomic rhesus macaque (trisomic = born with three copies of a certain chromosome), had abnormal motor and social skills, in ways somewhat akin to humans with Down syndrome. Instead of punishing her "incomprehensible blunders," such as threatening the alpha male, the other macaques were accepting and forgiving of her until Azalea's death at age three. Female chimpanzees may confront and shut down an overly aggressive male, sometimes even pulling two adversaries close together for reconciliation, or prying rocks from an aroused males' hands.

In cases like these, animals are feeling empathy, then acting on that feeling with displays of kindness or help, behavior that de Waal calls sympathy. The empathy is purely embodied — literally felt in the body — and part of our evolved biology. "Our brains have been designed to blur the line between self and other," he writes. "It is an ancient neural circuitry that marks every mammal, from mouse to elephant."

[Cancel 2016.11]

Wow this book looks really interesting. I had never heard of this author but I looked him up and he seems to have written some cool stuff.

[signalmankenneth]

[Timshel]

Wow this book looks really interesting. I had never heard of this author but I looked him up and he seems to have written some cool stuff.

Yeah, I was thinking this would be a great book to read or maybe some of his others, but my Kindle is messed up.

It reminded of this other story, which I now learned extends research by the author, and the one Grind posted about our desire to seek justice.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-...elfish-others/

Capuchin monkeys are known for their ability to recognize when they're being treated inequitably, but it now appears the primates can even spot unfairness in situations that don't involve themselves.

The fluffy-faced monkeys judge the social interactions of others and hold biases against individuals behaving poorly, new research shows.

In a pair of studies, researchers investigated how capuchin monkeys in captivity reacted to different third-party social interactions. In one study, capuchins watched two actors engage in reciprocity exchanges, in which one actor handed over several balls to another, who then either reciprocated or selfishly kept all the balls. The second study involved a similar setup, but this time one actor helped or refused to help another actor who was struggling to open a container.

After each scene, the monkeys chose a treat from one of the actors, they consistently avoided treats from actors who refused to reciprocate or help. Capuchins in the wild may keep tabs on group members to figure out whom to avoid interacting with on a specific day, researchers said.

"The research implies capuchin monkeys are judging other individuals even when they aren't involved in the action, something that humans do all the time," said Sarah Brosnan, an ethnologist at Georgia State University, who wasn't involved in the new research. "It suggests the behavior may be deeply rooted in the primate family tree."

[Timshel]

[NOVA]

An interesting theory......I can see where the atheist would see the necessity to grab onto this....theory, to support their atheism.

So you need to accept that the universal condemnation of things like stealing and murder was inherent to the very earliest humanoid...
its just in our genes....(it just evolved, as we did)........and this theory is supported by a study of monkeys......
monkeys that one must believe judge the social interactions of others....did they come up with what standards the monkeys use to arrive at these...judgments ?

Then we must no longer accept the belief that earliest man, as far as we can tell, always looked to a deity to help them cope with the things they could
not understand with their level of knowledge.....lightening, earthquakes, volcanoes, etc....and its strange that modern man STILL TODAY believes in a diety to explain the unexplainable.
And that includes liberals, Democrats, conservatives and Republicans and every race of mankind.

The fact that every known culture (without exception as far as I know) has shown a tendency to 'worship' or 'believe' or 'look to' some higher power than themselves to explain what to them was unexplainable....can no longer be accepted.......because that would be counter to the atheist theory.....

Yeah....it is an interesting concept....but I fail to see any political connection or why its only conservatives that have it backwards....
Does that mean there are no conservative atheists....or conservative monkeys....or both....

The only thing I can deduce with certainty is....there are no conservative pinheads.

[Don Quixote]

what lunacy and hypocrisy

it is difficult to be spiritual when you are hungry

[canceled.2021.1]

Yeah, I was thinking this would be a great book to read or maybe some of his others, but my Kindle is messed up.

It reminded of this other story, which I now learned extends research by the author, and the one Grind posted about our desire to seek justice.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-...elfish-others/

Capuchin monkeys are known for their ability to recognize when they're being treated inequitably, but it now appears the primates can even spot unfairness in situations that don't involve themselves.

The fluffy-faced monkeys judge the social interactions of others and hold biases against individuals behaving poorly, new research shows.

In a pair of studies, researchers investigated how capuchin monkeys in captivity reacted to different third-party social interactions. In one study, capuchins watched two actors engage in reciprocity exchanges, in which one actor handed over several balls to another, who then either reciprocated or selfishly kept all the balls. The second study involved a similar setup, but this time one actor helped or refused to help another actor who was struggling to open a container.

After each scene, the monkeys chose a treat from one of the actors, they consistently avoided treats from actors who refused to reciprocate or help. Capuchins in the wild may keep tabs on group members to figure out whom to avoid interacting with on a specific day, researchers said.

"The research implies capuchin monkeys are judging other individuals even when they aren't involved in the action, something that humans do all the time," said Sarah Brosnan, an ethnologist at Georgia State University, who wasn't involved in the new research. "It suggests the behavior may be deeply rooted in the primate family tree."

What can't read without a Kindle? Oh the humanity. All that liberal brilliance brought to a screeching halt by a malfunctioning Kindle. If only there were another way to read something without an electronic device.

DAMN YOU AMAZON!!!!!!!!!

[cancel2 2022]

Yeah, I was thinking this would be a great book to read or maybe some of his others, but my Kindle is messed up.

It reminded of this other story, which I now learned extends research by the author, and the one Grind posted about our desire to seek justice.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-...elfish-others/

Capuchin monkeys are known for their ability to recognize when they're being treated inequitably, but it now appears the primates can even spot unfairness in situations that don't involve themselves.

The fluffy-faced monkeys judge the social interactions of others and hold biases against individuals behaving poorly, new research shows.

In a pair of studies, researchers investigated how capuchin monkeys in captivity reacted to different third-party social interactions. In one study, capuchins watched two actors engage in reciprocity exchanges, in which one actor handed over several balls to another, who then either reciprocated or selfishly kept all the balls. The second study involved a similar setup, but this time one actor helped or refused to help another actor who was struggling to open a container.

After each scene, the monkeys chose a treat from one of the actors, they consistently avoided treats from actors who refused to reciprocate or help. Capuchins in the wild may keep tabs on group members to figure out whom to avoid interacting with on a specific day, researchers said.

"The research implies capuchin monkeys are judging other individuals even when they aren't involved in the action, something that humans do all the time," said Sarah Brosnan, an ethnologist at Georgia State University, who wasn't involved in the new research. "It suggests the behavior may be deeply rooted in the primate family tree."

Did you know that a cappucino coffee is named after the capuchin monkey?

[Timshel]

An interesting theory......I can see where the atheist would see the necessity to grab onto this....theory, to support their atheism.

So you need to accept that the universal condemnation of things like stealing and murder was inherent to the very earliest humanoid...
its just in our genes....(it just evolved, as we did)........and this theory is supported by a study of monkeys......
monkeys that one must believe judge the social interactions of others....did they come up with what standards the monkeys use to arrive at these...judgments ?

Then we must no longer accept the belief that earliest man, as far as we can tell, always looked to a deity to help them cope with the things they could
not understand with their level of knowledge.....lightening, earthquakes, volcanoes, etc....and its strange that modern man STILL TODAY believes in a diety to explain the unexplainable.
And that includes liberals, Democrats, conservatives and Republicans and every race of mankind.

The fact that every known culture (without exception as far as I know) has shown a tendency to 'worship' or 'believe' or 'look to' some higher power than themselves to explain what to them was unexplainable....can no longer be accepted.......because that would be counter to the atheist theory.....

Yeah....it is an interesting concept....but I fail to see any political connection or why its only conservatives that have it backwards....
Does that mean there are no conservative atheists....or conservative monkeys....or both....

The only thing I can deduce with certainty is....there are no conservative pinheads.

Wow, ad hom much?

There is no need to "grab on to this to support atheism." You don't bother to offer any alternative explanation of the observed phenomena/behaviors. You just try to attack the scientists.

I was speaking directly about the conservatives here who have argued that morality is dependent on religion.

[Granule]

Conservatives have it backwards. The universal condemnation of things like stealing and murder are not a sign that religion shapes our morality, but that our morality shapes our religions. We don't need God to know why this or that act is wrong. We sense it at a deeper level as do our closest relatives.

This stands to reason, as only liberals are deep enough and moral enough to murder their unborn.

[PostmodernProphet]

We sense it at a deeper level

apparently a fulfillment of prophecy.....
Jeremiah 31

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

[Lowaicue]

I concur.

[Lowaicue]

apparently a fulfillment of prophecy.....
Jeremiah 31

I think you'll find that the Brothers grimm correctly prophesised this in several of their stories. Who would have thought that they were god in disguise. Wow!

[Lowaicue]

This stands to reason, as only liberals are deep enough and moral enough to murder their unborn.

Whereas you think nothing of killing thousands of your own troops and tens of thousands of innocent foreigners just because you leader lied to you. Come to think of it, your whole life has been at the mercy of liars and you STILL dont get it.
Each of those troops and civilians was a sentient being with emotions and feelings. They could feel the pain that killed them. Given the choice (horrible choice of course) most people would opt for the foetus, certainly in the first few weeks. It is not sentient. It feels no pain. (Please dont argue that point because it is fact, not belief)