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Thread: What can we do about disability and welfare fraud?

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    Lightbulb What can we do about disability and welfare fraud?

    You know the ones I am referring to. You know the ones that limp or seem crippled in public where they live but playing volleyball on vacation or riding motorcycles on long trips.

    Have you ever run into one? I have: What do you do for a living? "I am on disability" Really?

    For what? " I have this tingle in my back that prevents me from working" And it doesn't tingle when you are riding on these rough roads for 8 hours/day? or all that walking while here in Sturgis? WOW! that is amazing!


    Has anyone else noticed the trend?

    I think things like you tube and the local news stations would be interested in some of these cases, especially the guys and gals that walk perfectly ok when out of their home area. We need to band together as a nation and get this under control.

    We do not owe them a living.

    Thoughts?

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    Obviously, there are always going to be fraudsters. The only thing you can really do about it is what we've always done, that is, setting up some kind of process to try and root them out, waiting for inconsistencies in their account and such, gaining evidence, and prosecuting them legally. The thing about these "we need to root out fraud NAO!!" campaigns is that they can often devolve into hysteria, hounding innocent people and putting unreasonable, overly broad restrictions in place that hurt more than they help.

    And for what? You say there's a "trend", but can you actually validate that? Is there some new, recent outbreak of fraud? If so, we should identify what recent changes may have lead to it, and reform where appropriate. On the other hand, sometimes things like this just happen. Or, perhaps, you think it's always been the case that these programs are unusually susceptible to fraud, and you are using "trend" in that wishy washy, hyperbolic way that advocates often do (similar to how moral crusaders often thoughtlessly claim that teen suicides, drinking, drug use, etc... are "skyrocketing", as if it's beyond dispute, when in fact such things have been declining dramatically for decades). Then we can still take a rational approach. If fraud of government programs is higher than in private ones, then we should simply look at the differences in approaches being taken by both, and reform the governments approach to be in line with their (apparently) more successful one.

    So, at the end of the day, the first thing we have to do is, at the very least get some basic statistics, study the issue from a broad view, and see if the level of fraud really is increasing, and really is above some reasonable level. If we simply say "fraud is a problem", well duh, it's something that's going to happen. The fact that it exists does not, in itself, necessitate extreme measures to combat it. The real question would be "is the rate of fraud above what we see in other programs", maybe "is there something we could do to maybe lower the rate for every program?", not "fraud exists, therefore we should take hysterical measures to combat the defrauding of one specific organization". And if we allow anecdotal evidence like "I saw fraudsters just the other day!" to guide our decision making, then we are are essentially setting the bar as low as possible. Perhaps you really did see a fraudster, OK, that's one case of fraud in one area, it does not establish a trend.

    I suspect that any sort of broad movement of the sort you seem to be recommending would mostly just devolve into naked, hysterical vigilantism, with people intrusively attempting to identify people on disability in their area, following them around, seeing some event that they believe totally disproves whatever disability they are under the impression the recipient has (even though they don't have access to private information like that, and, in any case, aren't doctors and thus aren't qualified to make judgements about what qualifies as "disproving" their disability), and posting it on youtube with hysterical title, where a bunch of people see it, with the kindest and most humane commenters calling for summary drawing and quartering. Later, it turns out, the person who posted the video just didn't really know what they were talking about, and whatever the person was doing in the video really wasn't a disproof of their disability, but by that time people have moved on to other things, such as cat pictures. Things like this happen a few times, a few actual fraudsters may be caught, and many, many people on disability are harassed and hounded by hysterical individuals who are under the impression that being under disability should void any and all rights to privacy. Later, the whole thing blows over, as such things do, and does little to allay actual fraud, producing hugely disproportionate media attention and little else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
    You know the ones I am referring to. You know the ones that limp or seem crippled in public where they live but playing volleyball on vacation or riding motorcycles on long trips.

    Have you ever run into one? I have: What do you do for a living? "I am on disability" Really?

    For what? " I have this tingle in my back that prevents me from working" And it doesn't tingle when you are riding on these rough roads for 8 hours/day? or all that walking while here in Sturgis? WOW! that is amazing!


    Has anyone else noticed the trend?

    I think things like you tube and the local news stations would be interested in some of these cases, especially the guys and gals that walk perfectly ok when out of their home area. We need to band together as a nation and get this under control.

    We do not owe them a living.

    Thoughts?
    I just had a friend ho applied for disability because he is epileptic and his seizure are becoming more severe and he is unable to drive and the seizure are Los becoming more frequent. Holding a job has been difficult or him, getting hired has been difficult. He was denied permanent disability.

    The application process for welfare and disability are a lot more thorough than they once were. It took my veteran friend five years to prove that his PTSD is so severe he is unable to work as a result.

    I have trouble believing that a person receives full disability for a "tingle" in his back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    Obviously, there are always going to be fraudsters. The only thing you can really do about it is what we've always done, that is, setting up some kind of process to try and root them out, waiting for inconsistencies in their account and such, gaining evidence, and prosecuting them legally. The thing about these "we need to root out fraud NAO!!" campaigns is that they can often devolve into hysteria, hounding innocent people and putting unreasonable, overly broad restrictions in place that hurt more than they help.

    And for what? You say there's a "trend", but can you actually validate that? Is there some new, recent outbreak of fraud? If so, we should identify what recent changes may have lead to it, and reform where appropriate. On the other hand, sometimes things like this just happen. Or, perhaps, you think it's always been the case that these programs are unusually susceptible to fraud, and you are using "trend" in that wishy washy, hyperbolic way that advocates often do (similar to how moral crusaders often thoughtlessly claim that teen suicides, drinking, drug use, etc... are "skyrocketing", as if it's beyond dispute, when in fact such things have been declining dramatically for decades). Then we can still take a rational approach. If fraud of government programs is higher than in private ones, then we should simply look at the differences in approaches being taken by both, and reform the governments approach to be in line with their (apparently) more successful one.

    So, at the end of the day, the first thing we have to do is, at the very least get some basic statistics, study the issue from a broad view, and see if the level of fraud really is increasing, and really is above some reasonable level. If we simply say "fraud is a problem", well duh, it's something that's going to happen. The fact that it exists does not, in itself, necessitate extreme measures to combat it. The real question would be "is the rate of fraud above what we see in other programs", maybe "is there something we could do to maybe lower the rate for every program?", not "fraud exists, therefore we should take hysterical measures to combat the defrauding of one specific organization". And if we allow anecdotal evidence like "I saw fraudsters just the other day!" to guide our decision making, then we are are essentially setting the bar as low as possible. Perhaps you really did see a fraudster, OK, that's one case of fraud in one area, it does not establish a trend.

    I suspect that any sort of broad movement of the sort you seem to be recommending would mostly just devolve into naked, hysterical vigilantism, with people intrusively attempting to identify people on disability in their area, following them around, seeing some event that they believe totally disproves whatever disability they are under the impression the recipient has (even though they don't have access to private information like that, and, in any case, aren't doctors and thus aren't qualified to make judgements about what qualifies as "disproving" their disability), and posting it on youtube with hysterical title, where a bunch of people see it, with the kindest and most humane commenters calling for summary drawing and quartering. Later, it turns out, the person who posted the video just didn't really know what they were talking about, and whatever the person was doing in the video really wasn't a disproof of their disability, but by that time people have moved on to other things, such as cat pictures. Things like this happen a few times, a few actual fraudsters may be caught, and many, many people on disability are harassed and hounded by hysterical individuals who are under the impression that being under disability should void any and all rights to privacy. Later, the whole thing blows over, as such things do, and does little to allay actual fraud, producing hugely disproportionate media attention and little else.
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    Default What can we do about disability and welfare fraud?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluttershy View Post
    Obviously, there are always going to be fraudsters. The only thing you can really do about it is what we've always done, that is, setting up some kind of process to try and root them out, waiting for inconsistencies in their account and such, gaining evidence, and prosecuting them legally. The thing about these "we need to root out fraud NAO!!" campaigns is that they can often devolve into hysteria, hounding innocent people and putting unreasonable, overly broad restrictions in place that hurt more than they help.

    And for what? You say there's a "trend", but can you actually validate that? Is there some new, recent outbreak of fraud? If so, we should identify what recent changes may have lead to it, and reform where appropriate. On the other hand, sometimes things like this just happen. Or, perhaps, you think it's always been the case that these programs are unusually susceptible to fraud, and you are using "trend" in that wishy washy, hyperbolic way that advocates often do (similar to how moral crusaders often thoughtlessly claim that teen suicides, drinking, drug use, etc... are "skyrocketing", as if it's beyond dispute, when in fact such things have been declining dramatically for decades). Then we can still take a rational approach. If fraud of government programs is higher than in private ones, then we should simply look at the differences in approaches being taken by both, and reform the governments approach to be in line with their (apparently) more successful one.

    So, at the end of the day, the first thing we have to do is, at the very least get some basic statistics, study the issue from a broad view, and see if the level of fraud really is increasing, and really is above some reasonable level. If we simply say "fraud is a problem", well duh, it's something that's going to happen. The fact that it exists does not, in itself, necessitate extreme measures to combat it. The real question would be "is the rate of fraud above what we see in other programs", maybe "is there something we could do to maybe lower the rate for every program?", not "fraud exists, therefore we should take hysterical measures to combat the defrauding of one specific organization". And if we allow anecdotal evidence like "I saw fraudsters just the other day!" to guide our decision making, then we are are essentially setting the bar as low as possible. Perhaps you really did see a fraudster, OK, that's one case of fraud in one area, it does not establish a trend.

    I suspect that any sort of broad movement of the sort you seem to be recommending would mostly just devolve into naked, hysterical vigilantism, with people intrusively attempting to identify people on disability in their area, following them around, seeing some event that they believe totally disproves whatever disability they are under the impression the recipient has (even though they don't have access to private information like that, and, in any case, aren't doctors and thus aren't qualified to make judgements about what qualifies as "disproving" their disability), and posting it on youtube with hysterical title, where a bunch of people see it, with the kindest and most humane commenters calling for summary drawing and quartering. Later, it turns out, the person who posted the video just didn't really know what they were talking about, and whatever the person was doing in the video really wasn't a disproof of their disability, but by that time people have moved on to other things, such as cat pictures. Things like this happen a few times, a few actual fraudsters may be caught, and many, many people on disability are harassed and hounded by hysterical individuals who are under the impression that being under disability should void any and all rights to privacy. Later, the whole thing blows over, as such things do, and does little to allay actual fraud, producing hugely disproportionate media attention and little else.
    Have you ever heard the quote "brevity is the soul of wit"?

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    Default What can we do about disability and welfare fraud?

    Disability fraud? No way. That is like saying there are able bodied people who would rather collect unemployment or be on welfare. It just doesn't ever happen. Not in these United States of America

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    Quote Originally Posted by I Love America View Post
    Disability fraud? No way. That is like saying there are able bodied people who would rather collect unemployment or be on welfare. It just doesn't ever happen. Not in these United States of America
    The sad thing is disability rolls are increasing while the work force shrinks as revenue is needed more than ever before. It comes down to management really. I read today that 80% of the workforce in Cuba are government workers, just imagine the direction we could be heading if changes aren't made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
    The sad thing is disability rolls are increasing while the work force shrinks as revenue is needed more than ever before. It comes down to management really. I read today that 80% of the workforce in Cuba are government workers, just imagine the direction we could be heading if changes aren't made.
    What changes? What does Cuba have to do with the direction we are heading?
    Cite the workforce is shrinking? The disability rolls increasing?
    It is the responsibility of every American citizen to own a modern military rifle.

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    A record 5.4 million workers and their dependents have signed up to collect federal disability checks since President Obama took office, according to the latest official government data, as discouraged workers increasingly give up looking for jobs and take advantage of the federal program.

    This is straining already-stretched government finances while posing a long-term economic threat by creating an ever-growing pool of permanently dependent working-age Americans.

    Since the recession ended in June 2009, the number of new enrollees to Social Security's disability insurance program is twice the job growth figure. (See nearby chart.) In just the first four months of this year, 539,000 joined the disability rolls and more than 725,000 put in applications.

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    Frauds are everywhere. such as fiscally conservative republicans....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
    You know the ones I am referring to. You know the ones that limp or seem crippled in public where they live but playing volleyball on vacation or riding motorcycles on long trips.

    Have you ever run into one? I have: What do you do for a living? "I am on disability" Really?

    For what? " I have this tingle in my back that prevents me from working" And it doesn't tingle when you are riding on these rough roads for 8 hours/day? or all that walking while here in Sturgis? WOW! that is amazing!


    Has anyone else noticed the trend?

    I think things like you tube and the local news stations would be interested in some of these cases, especially the guys and gals that walk perfectly ok when out of their home area. We need to band together as a nation and get this under control.

    We do not owe them a living.

    Thoughts?
    Yes. Not to mention the made up 'disabilities' like bi-polar, ADHD and depression. Give me a break.
    "Good times and riches and son-of-a-bitches, I've seen more than I can recall." --Jimmy Buffett

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargazer View Post
    Yes. Not to mention the made up 'disabilities' like bi-polar, ADHD and depression. Give me a break.
    Imagine the look on people's faces during and after WWII, Lazy people disgust me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargazer View Post
    Yes. Not to mention the made up 'disabilities' like bi-polar, ADHD and depression. Give me a break.
    Apparently you are lucky enough not to have anyone in your life who suffers from mental illness. You should feel blessed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rana View Post
    Apparently you are lucky enough not to have anyone in your life who suffers from mental illness. You should feel blessed.
    Gee, plenty of people have mood swings, plenty of people can't concentrate, they ain't disabled. That's my point. What's yours?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
    You know the ones I am referring to. You know the ones that limp or seem crippled in public where they live but playing volleyball on vacation or riding motorcycles on long trips.

    Have you ever run into one? I have: What do you do for a living? "I am on disability" Really?

    For what? " I have this tingle in my back that prevents me from working" And it doesn't tingle when you are riding on these rough roads for 8 hours/day? or all that walking while here in Sturgis? WOW! that is amazing!




    Has anyone else noticed the trend?

    I think things like you tube and the local news stations would be interested in some of these cases, especially the guys and gals that walk perfectly ok when out of their home area. We need to band together as a nation and get this under control.

    We do not owe them a living.

    Thoughts?
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1678773.html

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