Originally Posted by
Dixie
Better economies? Who is an economy better for when slave labor is employed? Perhaps an end to totalitarianism? Perhaps? Freedom and individual rights used to be the moral underpinning of the west. Now it's economic growth by any means necessary, even at the expense of freedom? I envision something different, and reject your priorities and vision.
It still is the moral underpinning of the west, at least until Hillary gets elected. We can't tell China not to use 'slave labor' they just look at us as if we are fools, and laugh. We are not going to fight a war to make them do it, so what is your option? Refuse to trade and break diplomatic ties? How is that going to resolve the human rights issues in China? Please explain it to me, because I don't see an end to the means here.
No. I'm making total sense. You're just glossing over the realities of what you promote with nice sounding words and misprioritize morality and economic growth. You present things as "the only way" when there are other choices we could make.
No, you are not making sense, because you haven't explained how disengaging with China, and refusing to trade with them, is going to solve the human rights problem in China. Until you can show me how that happens, I don't believe you, mostly because that was the scenario prior to 1972, and the human rights conditions only worsened in China.
You are not thinking critically. THere ARE options on the table. We can choose to place business within a moral framework. And we should look at our economic policies in the wider context of national security and self-determination.
Oh, I am thinking critically, it is you who isn't. There are no other options on the table, placing business within a moral framework didn't work, we tried it for decades, the problem only worsened. Our policies are centered around national security and self-determination, it is far better to have trade relations with China, than to impose some moral trade ban on them. As I said, and you have not countered, if we don't have trade and commerce with China, we essentially have nothing to bargain with, and the Chinese can tell us to kiss their little yellow asses. If we have billions of dollars tied up in trade interests, it's a little easier to negotiate with them, to lobby the government to change its policies, to push for better conditions.
we could simply stop empowering our enemies with billions of trade dollars.
And as I have repeatedly said, that is precisely what we did up until 1972, when Nixon normalized trade relations with China. The problem with your idea is, we have tried it and it failed. China ignored our calls for moderation, and sold all they could produce to Russia, and our lack of trade dollars didn't effect them one little bit. We had ZERO leverage with the Chinese, nothing to bargain for or with, because we had polarized relations completely with China, and until Nixon, we had no means to negotiate with them about the human rights issues. Now, we are developing a strong trade relationship with them, and that is the key to fostering change in China, it's the only real option we have, unless we want to go to war.
We can close our border to protect our opportunities for our children instead of giving their future to the masses of south american poor. We can stop immigration of muslim terrorists into our nation. We can say no to the New world order.
Yes, and we can all put on our tin foil hats and pretend that Dick Cheney was abducted by aliens, and they seek to control the country. We can bluster up a bunch of drummed up and hyped up hooey about secret cartels and sinister plots, and work the pinheads up into a frenzy over it! THAT is going to solve the human rights problems in China, right???
Trust in government? Like big brother? should we love big brother?
As I said... because you distrust government!
Your describing yourself and your nazi party of global fascism which is made up of both republicans and democrats.
Speaking candidly and objectively, I do not believe there are "nazis" on either side of the political aisle in America. Again, you are going to the well of misused words, and trying to apply dramatic context to make your point... typical pinhead behavior.... classic!
You've given up thinking for yourself; you just accept these memes presented to you by fascists as gospel and proceed to batter those who tell the truth, or present other options.
Well, no... it would appear YOU are the one who has given up thinking, I have been trying to get you to think, but you seem almost incapable because of your partisanship, pinheadedness, or general distrust of government. I haven't "accepted" anything, I just posted how I didn't agree with NAFTA and GATT until I researched them, so how do you figure I "just accepted" this? And as for "other opinions" I have asked you to share your opinions, and you you can't seem to tell me what your plan is for China, or the global economic future, or any other issue we've discussed. You just want to rail on Bush and the Administration, the "neocons" and the NWO. Which would be alright, if you brought substance, but you don't. It's typical liberal knee-jerk reactionary emotive reasoning.
When you can see no alternative to giving billions in trade to a totalitarian nation, building it's military to destroy you, you are mentally gone, completely stark raving mad.
We don't GIVE billions in trade, we TRADE in billions with. You make it sound as if we are gifting something to the Chinese, and we aren't. Again, I ask you, what is your alternative? Tell me something we haven't tried, and I will listen! The way I see it, we have two choices, foster healthy trade relations with China, and try to be diplomatic, or isolate and alienate them completely. The later has been tried, and didn't work. We can stand here with our hands on our hips acting incredulous about the human rights conditions in China, but without some means to leverage and motivate China to change, it isn't going to happen, there is no reason for it to happen, China has no interest in doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, and we aren't going to militarily force them to, and they know that. So... what's your solution? You have none!
The solution, or at least the beginning of a possible solution, comes through diplomacy, and fostering good strong trade alliances with China, becoming economically connected mutually, so that we have a bargaining chip. Without this leverage, China is not going to change, and we can't change them.
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