Sweet Jane
Well who does? Fact is, taxation is at historic lows. If we wish to keep it that way we need to give up on some spending. What are you willing to cut spending on? Defense? Social Security? Infrastructure? What program or service near and dear to you are you willing to cut back on or do with out?Originally Posted by WinterBorn
You're Never Alone With A Schizophrenic!
Libertarian Minded
Don't forget those who have nothing to give, but still have taken from them what they don't have to give, with penalties to answer for, if they come into conflict.
I don't hear any out cry's for their rights from your logic.
Tell me. Do you have a right to anything you own? Do you have a right to property in any kind of way?
Man knows no master save creating heaven,
or those whom choice and common good ordain.
Demacrat--Republican---------------------Center-------------------------------------------Libartarian
Marxist, and little freedom--------------------------------------------------Anti-Marxist-Much Liberty
"There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. . . One is by
sword. . . The other is by debt.
John Adams 1826
Banned
Not all of them have "bad" homes apple...just non incentivised ones...but yeah, throw drugs into it and it's another entire layer of dysfunction.
Welfare is not good, it's addictive. Welfare was our nations early public employee plan...now those jobs are permanent, pay more are unionized and have more security then many of their private counter parts and public welfare is now unrelated to work...bad.
MEOW
If they are unable to give what is expected then they would be receiving help.
Sure, people have a right to ownership. They also have an obligation to help others.Tell me. Do you have a right to anything you own? Do you have a right to property in any kind of way?
For generations people were born and lived their lives in the same community. Over time, each person contributed. It balanced out, more or less.
Today, people frequently move. They don't have a chance to contribute to their community. That is where taxes enter the picture.
"May your reality be as pleasant as mine."
Banned
Government should have no right to force one man to be anothers keeper...what we have is government playing the role of the church and they suck at it.
rebel
can you cite where I'm legally obligated to help others?
A sad commentary on we, as a people, and our viewpoint of our freedom can be summed up like this. We have liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, yet those very people look at Constitutionalists as radical and extreme.................so those liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans must believe that the constitution is radical and extreme.
MEOW
"Not all of them have "bad" homes apple...just non incentivised ones."
Exactly, but rather than the government helping those kids they make it a jump-through-the-hoops program. Many drop out of school, for whatever reason. They will never have a decent life unless they get an education. Where is the program to offer them an education? A free education because, obviously, being on welfare they don't have any money.
We can't expect those who start out in life with strikes against them to view life the same way as a privileged person. Without an education they'll never get anywhere regardless of how much they work (in most cases). That's why they remain on welfare. They don't see any way out.
"May your reality be as pleasant as mine."
MEOW
Then the government should have no right to force a person to sacrifice their life for their country (draft). Why would anyone die for their country when their country doesn't give a damn if they're fed or housed?
Who would give their life for their country when their country would sit by while the person goes hungry? Who would give their life for their country when their country would watch their spouse die because of lack of medical care? Or watch a family member suffer because they can't afford medical care?
Government should be for the benefit of people. All people....what we have is government playing the role of the church and they suck at it.
"May your reality be as pleasant as mine."
Banned
They stay on welfare 'cause it's easy. They don't "see" a way out because they have not learned by "example" growing up, that they got nothing coming except that which they are willing to work for. Dignity is a motivator; dignity is earned; without dignity people have no inner drive. Lacking dignity people can become very self destructive and selfish.
Banned
I have never supported the draft...the draft tends to be a liberal pet.
I do not say people should not help other people...I say government has no right to force someone to do so...big difference. Government is supposed to protect people from an outside force that wishes to cause them harm. In that way all people are free to pursue happiness...not have it handed to them.
Our truly poor and needy have a multitude of food, shelter, and medicine available to them through our community based charities, clinics, and hospitals. What people like you want is for everyone to agree to government creating a free middle class lifestyle...it does not work because people are easilly conditioned to be lazy and just be satisfied with a mediocre free lifestyle as proven via our multiple generational welfare system. Pie in the sky does not work and every social system that has been created to bring it about has failed.
How about the special medical insurance and retirement for the senate? Let them draw social security like their constituents. That would at least prod them into being more careful with that money.
Defense spending could be cut.
How about corporate welfare? There are millions wasted there that could be cut.
We spend $25 billion maintaining unused or abandoned federal properties. Sell the damned things. In addition to the income from the sale, it would save us a bundle.
We are spending $2.6 million of our tax dollars to train chinese prostitutes to drink responsibly on the job. I am betting that program could be cut. http://www.cnsnews.com/public/conten...x?RsrcID=47976
A GAO audit found that 95 Pentagon weapons systems suffered from a combined $295 billion in cost overruns.
Congress recently gave Alaska Airlines $500,000 to paint a Chinook salmon on a Boeing 737.
The Defense Department wasted $100 million on unused flight tickets and never bothered to collect refunds even though the tickets were refundable.
The idea that budget cuts will cause problems is just a ploy used by those who have a stake in the game. Don't fall for it, Mott.
Loyal to the end
Wise words.
MEOW
I can cite where the government is obliged to help others and considering we are the government (democracy) then it follows we are all responsible.
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
Promote the general welfare. When one is charged with promoting a person's general welfare what does it mean?
Should one argue it means the general welfare of the country as opposed to the general welfare of individual citizens I'd like to know the difference? The citizens are the country. Citizens in poverty means part of the country is in poverty. Surely having citizens suffering from a lack of basic food and shelter and health care is not beneficial to the general welfare of a country.
Today, we have limits on certain crops to ensure prices remain high. Does anyone believe the Founding Fathers had that in mind? Today, we have medications and procedures to cure all types of ailments. When people say medical care was not included in the Constitution what care are they talking about? What care was available to be mentioned?
(Excerpt)"The Preamble to the United States Constitution is a brief introductory statement of the fundamental purposes and guiding principles that the Constitution is meant to serve. In general terms it states, and courts have referred to it as reliable evidence of, the Founding Fathers' intentions regarding the Constitution's meaning and what they hoped it would achieve."(End)
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preamble_to_the_United_States_Constitution"]Preamble to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg" class="image" title="Great Seal of the United States"><img alt="Great Seal of the United States" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/be/US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg/125px-US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/b/be/US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg/125px-US-GreatSeal-Obverse.svg.png[/ame]
The Founding Fathers' intentions. They couldn't be specific about things they knew nothing about such as the advances in medicine or the industrial revolution to the point where food production soared. Does anyone believe the Founding Fathers' had any idea more food would be produced than necessary and then quotas placed on that food which has resulted in some going hungry?
Is that the kind if country the Founding Fathers' imagined, wished for, strived to build?
Is there anyone here who believes the general welfare and securing the blessings of liberty mean deliberately lessening food production so others go hungry?
Is there anyone here who believes the general welfare and securing the blessings of liberty encompass watching others suffer and, in some cases, die when medical care is available?
Is there anyone here who believes that was the Founding Fathers' idea of a "more perfect union"?
"May your reality be as pleasant as mine."
Sweet Jane
Look, that's not what I'm getting at. Riding waste and corruption from the system is important and we all want that but it won't solve the problem.
We, as a people, either need to tighten our belts and make some tough decisions about cutting popular programs or we will need to raise taxes. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Some suggestions I would have.
1. Cut military expenditures by about half. Were still fighting the cold war and it's been over for 20 years. We could cut our military in half and still have the largest military in the world. Let Japan and Western Europe and other nations pay for their own defence. It's time for us to reap the peace dividend.
2. Raise the cap on the pay roll tax for Social Security to $250,000 and, if needed, means test SS so those making over $100,000/year in retirement income recieve reduced benifits on a sliding scale upwards.
3. Complete reforming and moderninizing our health care system. Our present system is to costly and to inaffective. We need to modernize our system, as the rest of the industrialized nations have done, while improving outcomes.
These 3 steps combined with reducing/eliminating waste and corruption would fix our budget deficit problem.
Last edited by Mott the Hoople; 06-24-2010 at 11:03 AM.
You're Never Alone With A Schizophrenic!
rebel
Time to put this crap out of its misery. WE THE PEOPLE are no more the 'government' than charles manson is jesus christ. We are not a democracy, we are a representative republic. That means that we elect people to represent us in government, which hardly ever works out anyway.
'general welfare' is not a clause to ensure every individual has a lifetime job, home, pension, or any other entitlement. You should humbly apologize for your misconstrued misconstruction.
created and maintained by FDR and the 'new deal'.
there wasn't, and isn't. People can get an education to become a doctor and provide that care while getting paid for their services. capitalism at its finest. the government has no authority to mandate any care at all.
The founding fathers knew this could happen in a central government that didn't stay within the bounds of the powers authorized them. Because the feds went outside those powers, we now have the problems you complain about and want government to fix. Homelessness, poverty, hunger....these are all a result of federal manipulation of the markets. That is most certainly not what the founders wanted.
appeal to emotion
appeal to emotion
A sad commentary on we, as a people, and our viewpoint of our freedom can be summed up like this. We have liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, yet those very people look at Constitutionalists as radical and extreme.................so those liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans must believe that the constitution is radical and extreme.
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