After Bakhmut [Ukraine War] | The American Conservative

[Nordberg]

And let us not forget how reckless the Ukrainians operate, and as well how often they lie.

Truth is the first casualty in war, followed by real information. Nobody really knows what is going on. When wars are autopsied years after they are don much of the truth comes out. Sadly, it is written by the winners, not the historians. So even that is not really factual. But people in Russia do not want the war. People in Ukraine do not. The wealthy,corporations, and politicians are waging war. War is about money and power.

[Hawkeye10]

Truth is the first casualty in war, followed by real information. Nobody really knows what is going on. When wars are autopsied years after they are don much of the truth comes out. Sadly, it is written by the winners, not the historians. So even that is not really factual. But people in Russia do not want the war. People in Ukraine do not. The wealthy,corporations, and politicians are waging war. War is about money and power.

You would refuse to tell the truth if your life depended upon it.

[anonymoose]

True/Not True is what matters idiot.

And nobody knows what’s true.

[Hawkeye10]

And nobody knows what’s true.

The mantra of the morons.

Some of us managed to do better.

[anonymoose]

The mantra of the morons.

Some of us managed to do better.

So you are privy to classified military intelligence. I’m surprised the FBI hasn’t arrested you by now for revealing so much of that knowledge on JPP.

[Nordberg]

You would refuse to tell the truth if your life depended upon it.

Glad a dumb post like that came from you. You are a deep righty who lives in a cesspool of lies. The problem is, you do not know that. You think Trump, Fox, and right-wing gnus are telling you the truth.

[Phoenyx]

Where did you hear that? From what I've heard, it's the Ukrainians that will soon be running out of ammunition, specifically, artillery.

It’s a war of attrition.

If we can agree with the American Heritage Dictionary's definition of the term attrition as "A gradual reduction in number or strength because of stress or military action", then I'd say that one side is getting a lot more worn down then the other. I invite you to guess which side.

They both are. Who has more ability to resupply? Russia or the West?

I strongly agree with Hawkeye's assessment: Russia. I think present supplies say a lot as to how things are going:

Ukrainian soldiers on the front lines have been rationing their mortar shells as Russian troops outgun them with 10 times more artillery: report | Business Insider

I think you were more accurate when you said Ukrainian -nationalists-. There's a whole lot of Ukrainians that have been upset with the direction of the country ever since Euromaidan.

They’re far more upset about what the Russians are doing to them

Not according to reporters on the ground in Russian controlled areas of what was previously Ukraine. There is certainly evidence that western media is trying to cast Russia's military operation in a bad light using some pretty shady methods though. Please note that Artyomovsk was the official name of Bakhmut until 2016 and is the one that Russia and Russian friendly Ukrainians prefer:

Resident accuses journalists of paying Right Sector and Azov to bomb Artyomovsk | Donbass Insider

They really have nothing more to lose.

If only that were true. Those who are still alive still have their lives. [snip]

And they’d like to keep it that way. They have no choice but to resist.

I find it somewhere between amusing and sad that Ukraine can do more than simply "resist". For anyone in the audience, the very sentence -after- I said the bit about western Ukrainian's lives, I said this:

**
I think it's a terrible shame how little effort has been put into diplomatic initiatives.
**

That's the one thing that Zelensky and his nationalist government, backed by the U.S. and the U.K., refuse to even consider and I believe it's the reason that this conflict continues with the death toll ever on the rise.

That buddy of yours from debatepolitics.com who’s an officer in the Russian military openly stated that here. Now the objective is to turn Ukraine into a field, so he has said.

I didn't see him say this, but even if he did, I think we can agree that his position as part of the Russian military puts him in a situation where it'd probably be hard to be fairly objective. What I -do- know is that Russia tried to find a diplomatic solution to the Donbass crisis for 8 years, with Ukraine and western powers pretending to play along while truthfully just working on strengthening the Ukrainian army to try to force the Donbass republics to rejoin Ukraine. It's small wonder that some in Russia may start to think that the only solution is to neutralize western Ukraine. I still hope for a diplomatic solution though.

Bakhmut is useless to the Russian military.

Even some marginally mainstream media sources in the U.S. disagree with that. Here's the conclusion of an article from the Hill in late April that points out Bakhmut's strategic importance for Russia:

**
Bakhmut has been the main focus of Russian attacks for months. Capturing the city could enable Russian forces to take over most of the Donetsk region. Donetsk is one of the regions Russia has claimed as its own during the conflict.
**

Not mentioned is the fact that Donetsk is one of the 2 Ukrainian regions that voted to become more independent from Ukraine -despite- Putin's discouraging them from holding the referendum. This was way back in 2014.

Source:
Ukraine defended Bakhmut despite US intelligence warning against the move: report | The Hill

Incidentally, the U.S. military was telling Zelensky even back then to withdraw from Bakhmut:

**
A military assessment labeled “top secret” said consistent Russian advances were making the city hard to defend and put the Ukrainian army “at risk of encirclement unless they withdraw within the next month.”

But Ukraine continued to defend anyway, with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky holding up Bakhmut — in the country’s northeast — as more than just a city, but a national symbol of resistance to the Russian invasion. Zelensky visited the city last month, long after the U.S. intelligence warnings, and Ukraine has maintained control of the city.
**

[Hawkeye10]

Apparently Regime Media is mostly simply refusing to report that Ukraine has been under near constant withering missile and drone attack for days. I dont know what is being targeted but there is every reason to think that Russian Intel is at least pretty good.

[Tranquillus in Exile]

Apparently Regime Media is mostly simply refusing to report that Ukraine has been under near constant withering missile and drone attack for days.

Here is the latest on strikes in Moscow and Kyiv
At least eight drones targeted Moscow early Tuesday, according to the Russian authorities, the first attack to hit civilian areas in the Russian capital ...
The assault came after yet another overnight bombardment by Russian forces of the Ukrainian capital Kyiv, which has faced a barrage of attacks in recent weeks that have put the city on edge and tested the country’s air defenses.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/05...ne-drones-news


The regime media covers it up well, don’t they?

[Phoenyx]

Russia.


Bakhmut is not surrounded by Ukraine forces...this statement is insane.

I get my information from ISW. Where do you get yours.

I'm guessing that ISW stands for the Institute for the Study of War? If so, could you please quote where they say that Bakhmut is surrounded by Ukraine? I took a snapshot of their interactive map today, "Assessed Control of Terrain in Ukraine
as of May 29, 2023, 3:00 PM ET":
Screen Shot 2023-05-30 at 7.50.50 a.m..jpg

Source:
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories...de641cf64bd375

The map makes it clear that Russia controls everything east of Bakhmut as well as everything north and south of it. The only side Ukraine controls is the area between 2 lakelike bodies to the west. If Russia were to take more land either in the north or the south, they could begin to form another cauldron as they've done elsewhere and surround that area, something which they've certainly done in the past. Heck, the area to the north of Bakhmut looks like such an enclosure is starting for the city of Siversk.

[Phoenyx]

I get my information from ISW. Where do you get yours.

True/Not True is what matters idiot.

No need for ad hominem attacks. I'd say it'd be more helpful to ascertain what he means by ISW. Because if he means the Institute for the Study of War, they are apparently showing something quite different from what anonymoose thinks they are showing...

[Yakuda]

I don't understand why you think the fact that he supported the 2003 Iraq war means that anything he's said or done since then shouldn't matter. Did you even read the quote of the article I put up in the opening post, or did you just look at the fact that it was written by Macgregor and call it a day?

You're wasting your time with these people. They see American Conservative and they hate it. That poster hasnt read the article and likely never will . That poster has no compelling insights or thoughts about the subject you presented.

[Phoenyx]

Three men found guilty of murdering 298 people in shooting down of MH17

First of all, the downing of what was alleged to be MH 17 took place well after the uprisings had already taken place. Second of all, there's some debate as to whether that aircraft was MH 17. And most importantly, there's a lot of evidence suggesting that the aircraft was hit by the Ukrainian army, not the Russians. I covered this in another thread that you actually participated in back in November. In case you'd like to revisit it, it's here:

Ukraine and Malaysia Flights Mh 17 and MH 370 | justplainpolitics.com

It's OK to be wrong, none of us are Gods, what matters is that you pursue truth.

I certainly agree that it's ok to be wrong, I imagine no human has always been right, and I likewise agree that the pursuit of truth is so very important (one could say that my signature in my posts makes this clear).

I'm guessing that you believe that one or more of the things I said in my quote above is/are mistaken?

[Phoenyx]

And let us not forget how reckless the Ukrainians operate, and as well how often they lie.

Truth is the first casualty in war, followed by real information. Nobody really knows what is going on. When wars are autopsied years after they are don much of the truth comes out. Sadly, it is written by the winners, not the historians. So even that is not really factual. But people in Russia do not want the war. People in Ukraine do not. The wealthy,corporations, and politicians are waging war. War is about money and power.

I agree with you in part- Certainly the fog of war makes it difficult to know the truth. This is exacerbated when you have a mainstream media that is beholden to corporate interests. Based on my experience with following the various narratives in this war, I think a good way at getting at the truth is to look to see who has track records of lying and who doesn't. For the most part, I've found that the mainstream media lies through their teeth while various alternative media have great track records. I've found that antiwar.com has a pretty good track record of finding articles that are honest, which is why I started this thread with an article I found on their site.

As to Russians and Ukrainians not wanting this war, I can certainly agree that the majority of them don't. The trick is looking at who instigated this war. To do that, I think one has to look at the roots of Euromaidan, and the decisions that western powers have made to support the Ukrainian civil war that started shortly after the neo nazi forces rose to power following Euromaidan, training and arming western Ukraine against eastern Ukraine.

[Hawkeye10]

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