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Thread: Penny used a long known pro wrestling "sleeper" hold on Neely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    I guess you must be practicing the Earl method of discussion by putting words in someone's quote box that they never said. But I'm sure you'll correct your error by showing us where I pretend that there was no abuse of patients in some mental facilities, won't you? You are correct; some of those dire places needed closing. But not all. Why not reopen them, with far better oversight?

    So...tell us how you would help the dangerous mentally-ill people. Have you ever known anyone with a mental illness so severe that it negatively affected their life and that of their family? Do you have any idea how difficult it is to get many in this population to agree to therapy and medication? What percentage of our prison population do you think has mental illness? Is it kinder to keep them locked up in a state prison where they suffer abuse, or let them roam the streets and subways like the dead young man in this OP?
    Blaming the entire thing on "Saint Ronnie" did that.

    The reality was it was a national conversation and folks were just finding out about the horrid abuse going on. While it happened while Reagan was in office, it was not a 'I've got a pen and a phone, and want to take "care" away from the mentally ill" moment, it was a "holy crap! we have to stop this abuse NOW!" moment.

    And how I would help them, is the same thing I said in other threads. We should pay for their care so that we do not abuse them further by simply releasing them to the "houseless" state they are so often destined to wind up in. Many have reached a level of mental illness that they no longer can provide consent (or remove consent), we need to get them care and medicated so that they do not become just another death on the subway.

    This dude threatened others and his own life, not because some white guy wanted to strangle him, nobody did. But because the police and we as a society kept releasing him back after he refused care. We need to do better than this. It protects them, and everyone else at the same time.

    I think you assume something about me because of my less than progressive stance on some things, but I think your assumptions are yours and that they do not reflect my beliefs.
    Last edited by Damocles; 05-25-2023 at 10:35 AM.
    Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but rather we have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
    - -- Aristotle

    Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places. Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it. Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past. Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a God inspires you. Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests. After examination, believe what you yourself have tested and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
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  3. #47 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    Blaming the entire thing on "Saint Ronnie" did that.

    The reality was it was a national conversation and folks were just finding out about the horrid abuse going on. While it happened while Reagan was in office, it was not a 'I've got a pen and a phone, and want to take "care" away from the mentally ill" moment, it was a "holy crap! we have to stop this abuse NOW!" moment.

    And how I would help them, is the same thing I said in other threads. We should pay for their care so that we do not abuse them further by simply releasing them to the "houseless" state they are so often destined to wind up in. Many have reached a level of mental illness that they no longer can provide consent (or remove consent), we need to get them care and medicated so that they do not become just another death on the subway.

    This dude threatened others and his own life, not because some white guy wanted to strangle him, but because the police kept releasing him back after he refused care. We need to do better than this. It protects them, and everyone else at the same time.

    I think you assume something about me because of my less than progressive stance on some things, but I think your assumptions are yours and that they do not reflect my beliefs.
    Merely closing down an institution where abuse is occurring is no solution. Why not fix it? Do you think there's a will among voters to fund mental health care, including inpatient facilities? If the proposed resident of such a facility is not a danger to others or to himself, do we have the legal means to involuntarily commit them? Should we have that ability? There are a lot of questions on how to deal with this complex issue. So far we're damn short on solutions.
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals." -- Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOwlWoman View Post
    Merely closing down an institution where abuse is occurring is no solution. Why not fix it? Do you think there's a will among voters to fund mental health care, including inpatient facilities? If the proposed resident of such a facility is not a danger to others or to himself, do we have the legal means to involuntarily commit them? Should we have that ability? There are a lot of questions on how to deal with this complex issue. So far we're damn short on solutions.
    I agree. However, pretending that Reagan had the power to "fix it" is absurd and the abuse had to stop, it was so egregious that the nation was horrified. We closed them because of the abuse, not because it was what "Saint Ronnie" wanted. Seriously, All these decades, even moments when your party had both houses of congress (one time for a short period in a filibuster proof majority with Obama) and the White House and the SCOTUS and you blame one moment in the 1980s when the nation acted in horror of the abuse for the whole problem. Why didn't "you" do anything about it for the last few decades? Nah... this "Ronnie's Fault" bullcrap is just that (bullcrap). You've sat on your hands for too long to try to push this onto "Saint Ronnie".

    Your party is currently busy trying to say that there was a murder and not holding the necessary conversation that could have saved this poor guy, we need to start helping these folks rather than blaming the result of their actions on the folks trying to protect themselves and others.
    Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but rather we have those because we have acted rightly. We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
    - -- Aristotle

    Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places. Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it. Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past. Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a God inspires you. Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests. After examination, believe what you yourself have tested and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.
    - -- The Buddha

    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    - -- Aristotle

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    I agree. However, pretending that Reagan had the power to "fix it" is absurd and the abuse had to stop, it was so egregious that the nation was horrified. We closed them because of the abuse, not because it was what "Saint Ronnie" wanted. Seriously, All these decades, even moments when your party had both houses of congress (one time for a short period in a filibuster proof majority with Obama) and the White House and the SCOTUS and you blame one moment in the 1980s when the nation acted in horror of the abuse for the whole problem. Why didn't "you" do anything about it for the last few decades? Nah... this "Ronnie's Fault" bullcrap is just that (bullcrap). You've sat on your hands for too long to try to push this onto "Saint Ronnie".

    Your party is currently busy trying to say that there was a murder and not holding the necessary conversation that could have saved this poor guy, we need to start helping these folks rather than blaming the result of their actions on the folks trying to protect themselves and others.
    We're not talking Roman history, this happened in our lifetime. Reagan ran on the platform of cutting the national debt by a 1/2 trillion dollars. Cuts had to be sold to soccer moms and our state run media knows exactly how to do that.

    In reality, Reagan tripled the national debt. This is like watching Lucy hold the football for Charlie Brown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    A "rear naked choke" also involves using your legs to keep them from kicking. Like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    Well, then it looks like what Penny used was in fact, NOT a 'naked choke'.



    Looks more like the classic sleeper hold.
    Looks like you altered the picture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post

    I thought it was obvious that I just took the original horizontal version of that picture which is everywhere, and rotated it vertically for the sole purpose of visually illustrating how the two are performing the EXACT SAME HOLD. It's the same comparison picture I used in the OP, meaning I did not just scour Google and dig it up here for your benefit.
    No. You did it to lie about the choke. I posted the real picture where you can see him using his legs too...which is what you cropped out.






    No, that's just your convenient and highly disingenuous interpretation. I said nothing about the use of the legs. Damocles said that, and it does appear to be a component of the rear naked choke. But OTOH, the use of the legs during the sleeper hold does not automatically change it into a rear naked choke.
    LOL.

    Call it what you want. Adults call it what it is.

    The blood supply was not cut off from his brain. He was strangled.
    Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    Looks like you altered the picture.
    Looks (and smells) like your post stinks of desperation as you see your silly, pointless argument over nothing being destroyed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    No. You did it to lie about the choke. I posted the real picture where you can see him using his legs too...which is what you cropped out. .
    Fuck you, girlie man.

    Here is the original url of the picture I posted.....

    https://nypost.com/wp-content/upload...10576222-4.jpg

    Note the part where it says "nypost".

    Now, if you can figure out how to do it, click on it and look at the picture that comes up.

    That is how I downloaded it.

    I didn't crop it because there was nothing else and I was not interested in the lower part anyway.

    Afterward, I rotated it 90° so it would be in the same vertical orientation as the pic I posted it next to, for comparison purposes.

    But of course you know that.

    As does everyone else.

    You're just desperate to keep from acknowledging your stupid, childish position is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    LOL.

    Call it what you want. Adults call it what it is.
    So that leaves you out, doesn't it little transgirlie?

    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post

    The blood supply was not cut off from his brain. He was strangled.
    Yes, I've acknowledged that he was probably strangled.

    But, as I've said over and over, I believe that it was ACCIDENTAL.

    My point was that cutting off the blood supply to Neely's brain is probably/possibly what Penny was TRYING to do, but because he performed the sleeper hold incorrectly, he ended up choking him.

    But for you to aver so positively that "the blood supply was not cut off from his brain" suggests that you think you know something the rest of us don't. Which wouldn't surprise me.

    Apparently you're still the same old know-it-all SJW thug lover you were over at DCJ.
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    C'MON MAN!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    I agree. However, pretending that Reagan had the power to "fix it" is absurd and the abuse had to stop, it was so egregious that the nation was horrified. We closed them because of the abuse, not because it was what "Saint Ronnie" wanted. Seriously, All these decades, even moments when your party had both houses of congress (one time for a short period in a filibuster proof majority with Obama) and the White House and the SCOTUS and you blame one moment in the 1980s when the nation acted in horror of the abuse for the whole problem. Why didn't "you" do anything about it for the last few decades? Nah... this "Ronnie's Fault" bullcrap is just that (bullcrap). You've sat on your hands for too long to try to push this onto "Saint Ronnie".

    Your party is currently busy trying to say that there was a murder and not holding the necessary conversation that could have saved this poor guy, we need to start helping these folks rather than blaming the result of their actions on the folks trying to protect themselves and others.
    You'd rather fling shade than discuss solutions. That's your choice and it's cool. Not interested though.
    "Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals." -- Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    I still believe that Penny had no intention of killing or harming Neely, but I think he used a risky and reckless pro-wrestling move that I often saw on TV wrestling in my youth.

    I recognized it the instant I saw the picture.

    When I was a kid in the late 60's, my favorite thing to watch on Saturday morning TV after the cartoons were finished, was a local, live broadcast called "Championship Wrestling From Florida". Hosted by commentator Gordon Solie, it was video taped in nearby Orlando at what would eventually be renamed The Eddie Graham Sports Stadium.

    One of the regular wrestlers had a signature move called The Sleeper Hold which he often employed to literally put his opponents to sleep. The use of this hold can be traced back to the 1880's.

    Very simply, it involved getting one's arm around the opponent's neck from behind and using the other hand placed across the forehead, to turn the opponent's head slightly so that the bicep and forearm around the neck, cut off the blood flow in both carotid arteries, causing the opponent to lose consciousness without cutting off the windpipe.

    Eventually some other wrestlers adopted the move, but most wouldn't because it was considered too dangerous.

    In the comparison photo below, which I put together, there is little doubt as to what Penny was attempting to employ...



    Again, I don't hold anything against Penny for trying to protect himself and other passengers from Neely's fit of rage, but he should have known better than to employ that particular technique.

    Especially after the George Floyd incident and some others.
    wrestling is fake u stupid fuck...it didnt really put any wrestler to sleep

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordberg View Post
    He hurt nobody. He made people feel uncomfortable. I suppose to rightys, the deserved death. Holding him in a choke hold for 15 minutes is way, way past accidental death. He killed him because he wanted to.
    15 minutes is a fucking lie

    The video, captured by a freelance journalist on the train, shows the former Marine holding Mr Neely around the neck for two minutes and 55 seconds.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65573879

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    Quote Originally Posted by volsrock View Post
    wrestling is fake u stupid fuck...it didnt really put any wrestler to sleep
    You're the stupidest redneck sister/cousin three-way fucker on this board, ballsuck.

    The fact that you write 'u' instead of 'you' shows that you're fucking lazy ass juvenile on top of all that.

    Go shove your face down into a stinking, unflushed shit and piss-filled toilet bowl as far as you can get it, then try to see how many deep breaths you can take.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomad View Post
    You're the stupidest redneck sister/cousin three-way fucker on this board, ballsuck.

    The fact that you write 'u' instead of 'you' shows that you're fucking lazy ass juvenile on top of all that.

    Go shove your face down into a stinking, unflushed shit and piss-filled toilet bowl as far as you can get it, then try to see how many deep breaths you can take.
    Using "u" as an abbreviation for "you" is well-established in casual written English, especially online.

    https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/...ween-you-and-u


    https://fisherpub.sjf.edu/cgi/viewco...074&context=ur


    Now go jerk off to your mom ...again.....U stupid son of a bitch

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damocles View Post
    We are having the wrong conversation on this one.

    This mentally ill man was arrested multiple times but refused treatment and became a threat to himself and others. I get that he danced like Michael Jackson on some of his good days, but that does not change that he threatened people on the train and was insistent that he cared nothing at all for his own life.

    In a city where mentally ill folks have pushed folks down the stairs, hit old women in their face, pushed folks into oncoming trains, threats on the subway should be taken seriously.

    It is my humblest opinion, and this is from someone who doesn't like unnecessary government intervention, that folks that are seriously mentally ill, as this gentleman was, need to be put into care and given medication. They are too mentally ill to avoid it by revoking consent and are a danger to themselves and others. We need to do better taking care of the mentally ill rather than instantly go into "racism" chants and assume that his cutest baby pictures and videos of his first steps and dancing like nobody was watching are how he was acting when he was accosting strangers on the subway.

    Mentally ill people can be both the guy who danced on the subway and on a different day (or even the same one if they are mentally ill enough) the guy who threatened to attack others on the subway and was unafraid of consequences. Unfortunately this guy was both of those things.
    You really hit the nail on the head Damo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by volsrock View Post
    Using "u" as an abbreviation for "you" is well-established in casual written English, especially online.
    If you're a stupid, lazy-ass, brainless teenager maybe.

    We adults write words out the way they were meant to be and the way we learned to in school.

    You remember school, don't you?

    That place you rarely went to then dropped out of as soon as you were legally allowed?

    Sisterfucking rube.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordberg View Post
    Holding him in a choke hold for 15 minutes is way, way past accidental death. He killed him because he wanted to.



    The video, captured by a freelance journalist on the train, shows the former Marine holding Mr Neely around the neck for two minutes and 55 seconds.



    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65573879



    Folks that are new here or just read and do not post


    The Left LIES!


    Big difference in 15 mins and under 3 mins...under 3 puts it in the accidental death range....which of course blows up your narrative ....SO U FUCKING LIE ABOUT THE TIME to fit your narrative!
    Last edited by volsrock; 05-25-2023 at 10:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by volsrock View Post
    The video, captured by a freelance journalist on the train, shows the former Marine holding Mr Neely around the neck for two minutes and 55 seconds.



    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65573879



    Folks that are new here or just read and do not post


    The Left LIES!


    Big difference in 15 mins and under 3 mins...under 3 puts it in the accidental death range....which of course blows up your narrative ....SO U FUCKING LIE ABOUT THE TIME to fit your narrative!
    A freelance journalist just happened to be on the train....with his equipment. See...that's what bothers me.
    Don't be afraid to see what you see

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