A Theology Question

[Doc Dutch]

You really should look up "Inferential Statistics" to better explain what I am talking about.

The scientist testing a drug starts with the assumption "This drug has no effect" and then tests against it.

Are you familiar with finding a slope on a graph? Sometimes graphs have what appears to be a slope but the data is so scattered that the slope is actually just an accident of the noise in the data. They run various statistical tests on the slope to see if it is real. An F-test or a t-test on the regression or the slope.

The assumption is ALWAYS that there is no slope and that the F or t-test is testing against that. Even if it looks like a slope, the data may not bear this out.

Again, this is definitely more scientific, but it is how science is done. Start from the null and test against it.

Why? Will it prove or disprove that there is anything on those other side of life’s door?

Will it prove or disprove whether a cow or rattlesnake is behind a door without looking first?

[Doc Dutch]

My apologies for attempting to have an honest debate here. I am attacking NO ONE and I am not a hypocrite.

Disagreed you are attempting honest debate, that you haven’t attacked others and that you are not a hypocrite.

OTOH, I believe you truly believe your own claims, as irrational as they might be.

[Doc Dutch]

Exactly. Why did God bother with this life? Why not just send everyone straight to heaven? The description of God in the Old Testament reveals a feckless, weak God who throws temper tantrums when he doesn't get his way. That God can indeed go fuck himself.

The answer to that question, of course, is that we ARE here, so God didn't do what would have certainly been no big deal. So I guess he is just fucking with us.

Or, as many Christians believe, just leave them in Heaven? Why send people’s souls to suffer on Earth?

The OT, like the NT and any other religious texts, is a human perception of something they can’t fathom. Ergo, calling God feckless or weak is illogical since we have no way of knowing. It only seems that way to mortals.

Is there any doubt that Kindergarteners think the Teacher is evil for putting them in a time out? Do Fifth Graders think their Teacher is evil for giving them homework? Are they correct or is that only their limited perception of the larger picture?

[Doc Dutch]

Science only asks questions about physical processes.

Science asks all kinds of questions, but expects the answers to be within the limits of the Natural Universe. No scientist of repute would expect ghosts to magically provide the answers. That’s what priests are for. LOL

[Concart]

Or, as many Christians believe, just leave them in Heaven? Why send people’s souls to suffer on Earth?

The OT, like the NT and any other religious texts, is a human perception of something they can’t fathom. Ergo, calling God feckless or weak is illogical since we have no way of knowing. It only seems that way to mortals.

Is there any doubt that Kindergarteners think the Teacher is evil for putting them in a time out? Do Fifth Graders think their Teacher is evil for giving them homework? Are they correct or is that only their limited perception of the larger picture?

For me, it's much easier. Occam's razor. God isn't limited, or jealous, or angry. God doesn't exist. The concept is entirely unnecessary, except as a tool to keep the masses in check. God is a man made invention.

[Doc Dutch]

For me, it's much easier. Occam's razor. God isn't limited, or jealous, or angry. God doesn't exist. The concept is entirely unnecessary, except as a tool to keep the masses in check.

God is a man made invention.

What does Occam’s Razor say for the creation of the Universe? The creation of Space-Time at the Big Bang? Just magic? LOL

The only logical answer is “I don’t know”.

I think of God as a place card; a name for something beyond the Natural Universe that is beyond mortal comprehension. I don’t know what it is, but it seems there’s more to existence than we are seeing on front of our noses.

[Concart]

What does Occam’s Razor say for the creation of the Universe? The creation of Space-Time at the Big Bang? Just magic? LOL

The only logical answer is “I don’t know”.

That there was a natural process that occurred. One we don't understand.

What is the explanation for who made God? Seems like the universe would have been a lot easier job. And who was GOD'S watchmaker? Where did HE come from?

'I don't know' is the right answer. 'God did it' is the wrong answer. It's lazy. No need to figure it out or question how it happened, God did it. Will I win the lottery tonight? I don't know. But I can certainly take a pretty damn educated guess.

[Doc Dutch]

Incorrect.

It has every applicability. It is the basis of many atheists' approach. It is, in fact, really the ONLY applicable point of discussion. Unless one wishes to avoid scientific approaches to knowledge.

If science is asked 'Does God exist?' the answer is a resounding 'don't know, don't care'. Science is 100% unconcerned with God. God, if one existed, would exist outside of the natural world. It's that simple.

Agreed on Science and God. Unless it takes place inside the Natural Universe, science can’t study it and, therefore, won’t even try. A point some atheists and theists don’t seem to comprehend.

[Doc Dutch]

That there was a natural process that occurred. One we don't understand.

What is the explanation for who made God? Seems like the universe would have been a lot easier job. And who was GOD'S watchmaker? Where did HE come from?

'I don't know' is the right answer. 'God did it' is the wrong answer. It's lazy. No need to figure it out or question how it happened, God did it. Will I win the lottery tonight? I don't know. But I can certainly take a pretty damn educated guess.

No one knows the circumstances surrounding the origin of the Big Bang. Only that it happened.

Asking about the origin of a power outside Space-Time is as silly as the question about an all powerful being creating an immovable rock; those limitations only apply inside our Universe.

Another example is time. Time is a fundamental part of our Universe. The concept of Eternity is beyond time. Eternity does not equal forever since forever is infinite time. The current science shows our Universe will die of Heat death; The Big Chill. As such, it will last forever which is not the same as being eternal. The two concepts are completely different.

The Lotto is a limited by the rules of the Natural Universe. The odds are against winning, but you and I both know we can’t win if we don’t play. Comparing this to anything external to our Universe is a failure in logic.

[Concart]

No one knows the circumstances surrounding the origin of the Big Bang. Only that it happened.

Asking about the origin of a power outside Space-Time is as silly as the question about an all powerful being creating an immovable rock; those limitations only apply inside our Universe.

Another example is time. Time is a fundamental part of our Universe. The concept of Eternity is beyond time. Eternity does not equal forever since forever is infinite time. The current science shows our Universe will die of Heat death; The Big Chill. As such, it will last forever which is not the same as being eternal. The two concepts are completely different.

The Lotto is a limited by the rules of the Natural Universe. The odds are against winning, but you and I both know we can’t win if we don’t play. Comparing this to anything external to our Universe is a failure in logic.

To me, that's just another dodge. You can ask how the universe was created, but I can't ask how the creator was created?

My point is this. Just because I don't know something, it does not mean that all possible outcomes are equally probable. I don't know how the universe started, but the God answer is not on equal footing with the natural answer. Because the natural answer has explained every single thing we understand. There are no exceptions. I don't know if I'll win the lottery, but the 'no' outcome seems much more likely.

[Doc Dutch]

He's right, of course and I'm not opposed to believing in a god/gods. There's just no reason to. I'd love to know that I could exist in a state of eternal bliss simply by jumping through a few hoops for an all-powerful being.

Only the religious jump through hoops. Believing there is more to existence than the physical Universe requires no hoops.

[Saint Guinefort]

Agreed on Science and God. Unless it takes place inside the Natural Universe, science can’t study it and, therefore, won’t even try. A point some atheists and theists don’t seem to comprehend.

But presumably God does act in the natural world. Why are there believers?

[Saint Guinefort]

Disagreed you are attempting honest debate, that you haven’t attacked others and that you are not a hypocrite.

OTOH, I believe you truly believe your own claims, as irrational as they might be.

It kind of feels like you take any disagreement as a personal affront. That is not my intention but I understand if that is how you have perceived it.

I will ask you to look up inferential statistics to get a better explanation of how scientists approach questions like this. Clearly I have been unable to explain it sufficiently to you.

[Doc Dutch]

To me, that's just another dodge. You can ask how the universe was created, but I can't ask how the creator was created?

My point is this. Just because I don't know something, it does not mean that all possible outcomes are equally probable. I don't know how the universe started, but the God answer is not on equal footing with the natural answer. Because the natural answer has explained every single thing we understand. There are no exceptions. I don't know if I'll win the lottery, but the 'no' outcome seems much more likely.

I don’t know is a dodge? Fascinating. The fact you want to assume Space-Time existed prior to the creation of the Universe and beyond our Universe is without supporting evidence. I go with the scientists who state that Space-Time began with the creation of our Universe. YMMV.

https://www.exactlywhatistime.com/ph...-the-big-bang/

The general view of physicists is that time started at a specific point about 13.8 billion years ago with the Big Bang, when the entire universe suddenly expanded out of an infinitely hot, infinitely dense singularity, a point where the laws of physics as we understand them simply break down. This can be considered the “birth” of the universe, and the beginning of time as we know it. Before the Big Bang, there just was no space or time, and you cannot go further back in time than the Big Bang, in much the same way as you cannot go any further north than the North Pole.

As theoretical physicist Stephen Hawking notes in his 1988 book A Brief History of Time, even if time did not begin with the Big Bang, and there was another time frame before it, no information is available to us from that earlier time-frame, and any events that occurred then would have no effect on our present time-frame. Any putative events from before the Big Bang can therefore be considered effectively meaningless (or at least the province of philosophical speculation, not physics).

[Doc Dutch]

But presumably God does act in the natural world. Why are there believers?

People are funny; they believe all sorts of things without evidence such as you amply demonstrate on these threads. Others believe in ghosts, demons, telekinesis, etc.