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Thread: Have Conservatives trashed American values so no one wants to claim to have them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geeko Sportivo View Post
    Every time one of my Republican Friends starts in with politics, I usually just tell them, "Well, it's about time for me to go and watch a freshly painted wall dry somewhere" and leave!
    that sounds like an acknowledgement of your lack of wits to debate a republican. you might not have enough to watch that wall as well.
    A sad commentary on we, as a people, and our viewpoint of our freedom can be summed up like this. We have liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans, yet those very people look at Constitutionalists as radical and extreme.................so those liberals and conservatives, Democrats and Republicans must believe that the constitution is radical and extreme.

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    I think it worth posting the whole article because it's insightful and about more than just patriotism and religion (some of the data you do have to click on the link to see). And how Democrats and Republicans view things is important, but it misses a bigger discussion to simply turn it into another partisan pissing match.



    America Pulls Back From Values That Once Defined It, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

    Patriotism, religion and hard work hold less importance


    Patriotism, religious faith, having children and other priorities that helped define the national character for generations are receding in importance to Americans, a new Wall Street Journal-NORC poll finds.

    The survey, conducted with NORC at the University of Chicago, a nonpartisan research organization, also finds the country sharply divided by political party over social trends such as the push for racial diversity in businesses and the use of gender-neutral pronouns.

    Some 38% of respondents said patriotism was very important to them, and 39% said religion was very important. That was down sharply from when the Journal first asked the question in 1998, when 70% deemed patriotism to be very important, and 62% said so of religion.

    The share of Americans who say that having children, involvement in their community and hard work are very important values has also fallen. Tolerance for others, deemed very important by 80% of Americans as recently as four years ago, has fallen to 58% since then.

    Bill McInturff, a pollster who worked on a previous Journal survey that measured these attitudes along with NBC News, said that “these differences are so dramatic, it paints a new and surprising portrait of a changing America.’’ He surmised that “perhaps the toll of our political division, Covid and the lowest economic confidence in decades is having a startling effect on our core values.’’

    A number of events have shaken and in some ways fractured the nation since the Journal first asked about unifying values, among them the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the financial crisis of 2008 and subsequent economic downturn and the rise of former President Donald Trump.

    The only priority the Journal tested that has grown in importance in the past quarter-century is money, which was cited as very important by 43% in the new survey, up from 31% in 1998.

    Aside from money, all age groups, including seniors, attached far less importance to these priorities and values than when pollsters asked about them in 1998 and 2019. But younger Americans in particular place low importance on these values, many of which were central to the lives of their parents.

    Percentage who say these values are ‘very important’ to them, personally, shown among the youngest and oldest age groups

    Some 23% of adults under age 30 said in the new survey that patriotism was very important to them personally, compared with 59% of seniors ages 65 or older. Some 31% of younger respondents said that religion was very important to them, compared with 55% among seniors.

    Only 23% of adults under age 30 said that having children was very important.

    To Kevin Williams, a commercial and residential painter in Bend, Ore., many of these values are linked. Mr. Williams, 33 years old, said he thought that patriotism is declining as a civic value in tandem with rising individualism, a sense of entitlement among many people and a decline in community involvement, possibly because of people focusing on their own racial or cultural backgrounds rather than what Americans have in common.

    “I think patriotism encompasses being part of your community and helping other Americans,’’ said Mr. Williams, who said he coaches youth sports and volunteers with a group that provides security at protests and rallies.

    Mr. Williams said that, as a middle-school student at the time of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, he knew then that he would join the military. “I just felt that I wanted to do my part to protect my country,’’ said Mr. Williams, who supported former President Donald Trump’s two White House campaigns. He eventually served four years in the Marines.

    To Janet Boyer, a former Pentecostal minister who lives in Cumberland Township in Southwestern Pennsylvania’s coal country, patriotism has taken on a political sheen and is no longer important to her. “For me, patriotism has turned into right-wing nationalism,’’ said Ms. Boyer, who backed President Biden in 2020.

    Political divisiveness also weighs on her. “Back in the day, Republicans and Democrats had a sense of deference to one another,’’ said Ms. Boyer, 52, a self-help author and jewelry designer. “They didn’t act like they were in a schoolyard trying to be vengeful and reactive.”

    Asked what values unite the nation, Elana Reiser, 43, of Brookhaven, N.Y., pointed to economic opportunity. “No matter your starting point, you can always become successful,’’ she said.

    Some 21% in the survey said that America stands above all other countries in the world, a view that some call American exceptionalism. Half said that America is one of the greatest countries, along with some others. The share who said other countries are better than the U.S. rose to 27%, up from 19% when the same question was asked in 2016.

    Ms. Reiser said that, as a university math teacher, she knows that other countries rank higher on tests of math performance. She said longer vacations and maternal leaves in some European countries mean they have a better quality of life. “In America, you basically have to work your whole life, and you don’t get breaks,’’ she said.

    Jennifer Benz, vice president of public affairs and media research at NORC, said that views in the survey might have been colored by the downbeat economic outlook that the poll also found. “People are just sort of down on everything about the country,” she said.

    The survey found sharp differences by political party on social issues that have gained prominence.

    It asked whether society had gone far enough—or had gone too far—when it comes to businesses taking steps to promote racial and ethnic diversity. Just over half of Republicans said society had gone too far, compared with 7% of Democrats. Some 61% of Democrats said diversity efforts hadn’t gone far enough, compared with 14% of Republicans.

    Three quarters of Republicans said society had gone too far in accepting people who are transgender, while 56% of Democrats said society hadn’t gone far enough.

    Overall, 63% of people in the survey said that companies shouldn’t take public stands on social and political issues, while 36% of people said companies should take such stands. Among Republicans, 80% opposed companies doing so, while 56% of Democrats favored the idea.

    Half of people in the survey said they didn’t like the practice of being asked to use gender-neutral pronouns, such as “they’’ or “them,’’ when addressing another person, compared with 18% who viewed it favorably. Some 30% of respondents under age 35 viewed the practice favorably, compared with 9% of seniors.

    The Journal-NORC survey polled 1,019 people from March 1-13, mostly online. The margin of error was plus or minus 4.1 percentage points.

    Differences in how the new poll and prior surveys were conducted might account for a small portion of the reported decline in importance of the American values tested. Prior surveys, conducted for the Journal and NBC News, used live interviewers to reach people by phone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SmarterthanYou View Post
    that sounds like an acknowledgement of your lack of wits to debate a republican. you might not have enough to watch that wall as well.
    My Dad raised me to not argue with fools!

    There is no debating Republicans- Because if they even wanted me to have an opinion- THEY WOULD GIVE IT TO ME!

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    The question about patriotism made me think of this. (I don't think this is unique to SF.) I know my church has shirts that say Love Where You Live. The meaning being love San Francisco and get involved and do everything you can to make it the best City possible. I've seen others wear this shirt.

    Can it apply to the country as well? Reasons to me there would be more positive feelings in general if one has a love for their country than not. We can give the caveats certain individuals take that too far and loving where you live does not mean your City, or country, doesn't have faults. But on the whole its seems more good comes from that than not as people are more vested in improving a City, or country, that they care about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Richard Saunders View Post
    A new poll by the Wall Street Journal shows that the number that feel religion and patriotism are important to them has dropped dramatically.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/america...finds-df8534cd



    With the rise of Tea Party and all the so called "Patriot" organizations that attacked Obama for being black and the way religion was used in the same way have conservatives given religion and patriotism such a bad name that no one wants to be either?

    From the article:



    Thoughts?
    I suspect you support the destruction of America.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Richard Saunders View Post
    A new poll by the Wall Street Journal shows that the number that feel religion and patriotism are important to them has dropped dramatically.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/america...finds-df8534cd



    With the rise of Tea Party and all the so called "Patriot" organizations that attacked Obama for being black and the way religion was used in the same way have conservatives given religion and patriotism such a bad name that no one wants to be either?

    From the article:



    Thoughts?
    There has been few and far between real conservatives in the GOP for some time now, it is, and has been the party of Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    I think it worth posting the whole article because it's insightful and about more than just patriotism and religion (some of the data you do have to click on the link to see). And how Democrats and Republicans view things is important, but it misses a bigger discussion to simply turn it into another partisan pissing match.



    America Pulls Back From Values That Once Defined It, WSJ-NORC Poll Finds

    Patriotism, religion and hard work hold less importance


    Patriotism, religious faith, having children and other priorities that helped define the national character for generations are receding in importance to Americans, a new Wall Street Journal-NORC poll finds.

    The survey, conducted with NORC at the University of Chicago, a nonpartisan research organization, also finds the country sharply divided by political party over social trends such as the push for racial diversity in businesses and the use of gender-neutral pronouns.

    Some 38% of respondents said patriotism was very important to them, and 39% said religion was very important. That was down sharply from when the Journal first asked the question in 1998, when 70% deemed patriotism to be very important, and 62% said so of religion.

    The share of Americans who say that having children, involvement in their community and hard work are very important values has also fallen. Tolerance for others, deemed very important by 80% of Americans as recently as four years ago, has fallen to 58% since then.

    Bill McInturff, a pollster who worked on a previous Journal survey that measured these attitudes along with NBC News, said that “these differences are so dramatic, it paints a new and surprising portrait of a changing America.’’ He surmised that “perhaps the toll of our political division, Covid and the lowest economic confidence in decades is having a startling effect on our core values.’’

    A number of events have shaken and in some ways fractured the nation since the Journal first asked about unifying values, among them the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the financial crisis of 2008 and subsequent economic downturn and the rise of former President Donald Trump.

    The only priority the Journal tested that has grown in importance in the past quarter-century is money, which was cited as very important by 43% in the new survey, up from 31% in 1998.

    Aside from money, all age groups, including seniors, attached far less importance to these priorities and values than when pollsters asked about them in 1998 and 2019. But younger Americans in particular place low importance on these values, many of which were central to the lives of their parents.

    Percentage who say these values are ‘very important’ to them, personally, shown among the youngest and oldest age groups

    Some 23% of adults under age 30 said in the new survey that patriotism was very important to them personally, compared with 59% of seniors ages 65 or older. Some 31% of younger respondents said that religion was very important to them, compared with 55% among seniors.

    Only 23% of adults under age 30 said that having children was very important.

    To Kevin Williams, a commercial and residential painter in Bend, Ore., many of these values are linked. Mr. Williams, 33 years old, said he thought that patriotism is declining as a civic value in tandem with rising individualism, a sense of entitlement among many people and a decline in community involvement, possibly because of people focusing on their own racial or cultural backgrounds rather than what Americans have in common.

    “I think patriotism encompasses being part of your community and helping other Americans,’’ said Mr. Williams, who said he coaches youth sports and volunteers with a group that provides security at protests and rallies.

    Mr. Williams said that, as a middle-school student at the time of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, he knew then that he would join the military. “I just felt that I wanted to do my part to protect my country,’’ said Mr. Williams, who supported former President Donald Trump’s two White House campaigns. He eventually served four years in the Marines.

    To Janet Boyer, a former Pentecostal minister who lives in Cumberland Township in Southwestern Pennsylvania’s coal country, patriotism has taken on a political sheen and is no longer important to her. “For me, patriotism has turned into right-wing nationalism,’’ said Ms. Boyer, who backed President Biden in 2020.

    Political divisiveness also weighs on her. “Back in the day, Republicans and Democrats had a sense of deference to one another,’’ said Ms. Boyer, 52, a self-help author and jewelry designer. “They didn’t act like they were in a schoolyard trying to be vengeful and reactive.”

    Asked what values unite the nation, Elana Reiser, 43, of Brookhaven, N.Y., pointed to economic opportunity. “No matter your starting point, you can always become successful,’’ she said.

    Some 21% in the survey said that America stands above all other countries in the world, a view that some call American exceptionalism. Half said that America is one of the greatest countries, along with some others. The share who said other countries are better than the U.S. rose to 27%, up from 19% when the same question was asked in 2016.

    Ms. Reiser said that, as a university math teacher, she knows that other countries rank higher on tests of math performance. She said longer vacations and maternal leaves in some European countries mean they have a better quality of life. “In America, you basically have to work your whole life, and you don’t get breaks,’’ she said.

    Jennifer Benz, vice president of public affairs and media research at NORC, said that views in the survey might have been colored by the downbeat economic outlook that the poll also found. “People are just sort of down on everything about the country,” she said.

    The survey found sharp differences by political party on social issues that have gained prominence.

    It asked whether society had gone far enough—or had gone too far—when it comes to businesses taking steps to promote racial and ethnic diversity. Just over half of Republicans said society had gone too far, compared with 7% of Democrats. Some 61% of Democrats said diversity efforts hadn’t gone far enough, compared with 14% of Republicans.

    Three quarters of Republicans said society had gone too far in accepting people who are transgender, while 56% of Democrats said society hadn’t gone far enough.

    Overall, 63% of people in the survey said that companies shouldn’t take public stands on social and political issues, while 36% of people said companies should take such stands. Among Republicans, 80% opposed companies doing so, while 56% of Democrats favored the idea.

    Half of people in the survey said they didn’t like the practice of being asked to use gender-neutral pronouns, such as “they’’ or “them,’’ when addressing another person, compared with 18% who viewed it favorably. Some 30% of respondents under age 35 viewed the practice favorably, compared with 9% of seniors.

    The Journal-NORC survey polled 1,019 people from March 1-13, mostly online. The margin of error was plus or minus 4.1 percentage points.

    Differences in how the new poll and prior surveys were conducted might account for a small portion of the reported decline in importance of the American values tested. Prior surveys, conducted for the Journal and NBC News, used live interviewers to reach people by phone.
    Polls today on such nearly always reflect cynicism, it is just the times we live in, the information messages that dominate usually reflect negativity, so it’s just a byproduct

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    The question about patriotism made me think of this. (I don't think this is unique to SF.) I know my church has shirts that say Love Where You Live. The meaning being love San Francisco and get involved and do everything you can to make it the best City possible. I've seen others wear this shirt.

    Can it apply to the country as well? Reasons to me there would be more positive feelings in general if one has a love for their country than not. We can give the caveats certain individuals take that too far and loving where you live does not mean your City, or country, doesn't have faults. But on the whole its seems more good comes from that than not as people are more vested in improving a City, or country, that they care about.
    During the superbowl, a group started to run ads in support of Christianity. The most interesting part of them was how they tried to represent Christianity that was completely different from that practiced by the vocal evangelicals.

    "I like your Christ. I just don't like your Christians." seems to have a corollary.
    "I like your country. I just don't like your patriots."

    The hypocrisy of the evangelicals have turned people off to religion.
    The hypocrisy of the Tea Party, the Oathkeepers, the Threepercenters, and similar "patriot" groups have turned people off to patriotism.
    "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid."

    "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lionfish View Post
    I suspect you support the destruction of America.
    And you are a "patriot?"

    The patriots that attacked the US Capitol on Jan 6th are the ones that support the destruction of America.
    "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid."

    "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Richard Saunders View Post
    During the superbowl, a group started to run ads in support of Christianity. The most interesting part of them was how they tried to represent Christianity that was completely different from that practiced by the vocal evangelicals.

    "I like your Christ. I just don't like your Christians." seems to have a corollary.
    "I like your country. I just don't like your patriots."

    The hypocrisy of the evangelicals have turned people off to religion.
    The hypocrisy of the Tea Party, the Oathkeepers, the Threepercenters, and similar "patriot" groups have turned people off to patriotism.
    Christians condemn everyone not believing as they do. It is a crap religion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by archives View Post
    Polls today on such nearly always reflect cynicism, it is just the times we live in, the information messages that dominate usually reflect negativity, so it’s just a byproduct
    I don't disagree but is that still the case on attitudes towards having kids and hard work? (two of the questions asked) It definitely could be I guess. If you're cynical towards the country I guess the idea of hard work might not be appealing or the same with bringing kids into the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SmarterthanYou View Post
    i've seen the light of you evil establishment parties for over a decade now.........
    Then start your dreamed of race war


    It will end very quickly

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Richard Saunders View Post
    During the superbowl, a group started to run ads in support of Christianity. The most interesting part of them was how they tried to represent Christianity that was completely different from that practiced by the vocal evangelicals.

    "I like your Christ. I just don't like your Christians." seems to have a corollary.
    "I like your country. I just don't like your patriots."

    The hypocrisy of the evangelicals have turned people off to religion.
    The hypocrisy of the Tea Party, the Oathkeepers, the Threepercenters, and similar "patriot" groups have turned people off to patriotism.
    Not that this board should be a proxy for anything but we have people here who regularly go as far as wishing people they disagree with leave the country or even die. That goes far beyond simple disagreements. So maybe its not surprising that anything we associate with people we don't like we don't want to be seen as a part of.

    My Pastor thinks Christianity has gone too far to the right, and that's why people were turned off, so he basically created a liberal church. He regularly talks about the need for us to be a woke church. He'll regularly post things from Ibram X. Kendi on Instagram and he would argue against Trump on Facebook. He got involved in the culture wars, just from the liberal side. He's pulled away from some of this once Biden took office but it was interesting to witness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawacko View Post
    I don't disagree but is that still the case on attitudes towards having kids and hard work? (two of the questions asked) It definitely could be I guess. If you're cynical towards the country I guess the idea of hard work might not be appealing or the same with bringing kids into the world.
    Opinion shared in polls I don’t believe often reflect what people actually think. Vast majority of people go about their lives unconscious on ideas as patriotism and family, basically living as they always have. How many people really stop what they are doing to even respond to a poll, it is usually those holding the strong views, which are usually negative, and reflect in the poll results

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    Which Party has been talking about melting snowflakes for years now?


    Which party loves to make people sad?



    Which party prefers ARs to living children?

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