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    Quote Originally Posted by IBDaMann View Post
    That's more church material. You are avoiding the Fischer-Trosch process because you know what it will do to your faith. Science has that effect. I feel for you. Those with the strongest religious faiths are those whose faiths permit the pursuit of science. To that end, I would recommend you have a conversation with Into the Night and gfm7175 and find out how they do it. I can't help you in that area because I'm an atheist, so I don't ever face that challenge.

    When the day comes that you are ready to break free from the bonds of your political and religious servitude to Global Warming, Climate Change and their Marxist administrators, I'll be happy to explain to you how the push to get away from hydrocarbons, earth's best renewable energy resource, is damaging to world economies and is really just a stupid idea being pushed by people who basically hate humanity.


    There is no such thing ... outside of your faith, that is. If I were to show you hydrocarbons produced in a lab from no organic material, your religion would nonetheless force you to "see" biomarkers that naturally are not there.

    Ditching a religion isn't easy, is it? Especially when people you trusted implicitly were actually indoctrinating you into that faith over many years by telling you that the religion is NOT a religion, but is actually "settled science."

    I never let anyone do my thinking for me. I never let anyone bend me over furniture and ream disinformation into me.
    OK. I thought you were serious. You aren't. You are a moron. You know about as much geology as Cypress does.

    Good job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Geology is also the science of matter. Nice try.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    It comes down to a difference in scale.
    Too funny. Don't you two realize that it would be much easier just to come to me for the correct answer? It would require less effort and would spare you some embarrassment.

    Geology is the study (ology) of the earth (geo), with the understanding that "earth" doesn't really include the hydrosphere or atmosphere ... but that isn't a hard/fast rule. Geology overlaps with chemistry and physics.
    Global Warming violates the 1st LoT by claiming a magical creation of thermal energy out of nothing, in the form of a temperature increase, which is somehow caused by a magical substance.
    Greenhouse Effect violates Stefan-Boltzmann and black body science by claiming that an increase in earth's temperature is somehow caused by a decrease in earth's radiance.
    Greenhouse Effect violates the 2nd LoT by claiming that the cooler atmosphere somehow heats the warmer earth's surface.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IBDaMann View Post
    Too funny. Don't you two realize that it would be much easier just to come to me for the correct answer? It would require less effort and would spare you some embarrassment.

    Geology is the study (ology) of the earth (geo), with the understanding that "earth" doesn't really include the hydrosphere or atmosphere ... but that isn't a hard/fast rule. Geology overlaps with chemistry and physics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Phimosis View Post
    OK. I thought you were serious. You aren't. You are a moron. You know about as much geology as Cypress does.

    Good job.
    It's tough to ditch a religion. I feel for you.

    Just be aware that when such topics arise, you are going to get raked over the coals, and your religious indoctrination will not help you. You aren't fooling anyone with your death-struggle to avoid allowing the Fischer-Tropsch process to destroy your faith. I really feel for you.

    When you are ready to climb on over to the science side of the fence, I will be happy to help you all you wish. I won't be bending you over furniture and telling you what to believe.
    Global Warming violates the 1st LoT by claiming a magical creation of thermal energy out of nothing, in the form of a temperature increase, which is somehow caused by a magical substance.
    Greenhouse Effect violates Stefan-Boltzmann and black body science by claiming that an increase in earth's temperature is somehow caused by a decrease in earth's radiance.
    Greenhouse Effect violates the 2nd LoT by claiming that the cooler atmosphere somehow heats the warmer earth's surface.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IBDaMann View Post
    It's tough to ditch a religion. I feel for you.

    Just be aware that when such topics arise, you are going to get raked over the coals, and your religious indoctrination will not help you. You aren't fooling anyone with your death-struggle to avoid allowing the Fischer-Tropsch process to destroy your faith. I really feel for you.

    When you are ready to climb on over to the science side of the fence, I will be happy to help you all you wish. I won't be bending you over furniture and telling you what to believe.
    So go ahead and show the class how you can get a porphyrin ring from Fischer-Tropsch in a geologic setting. I'll wait.

    You, of course, won't be able to. Because all you know is the name Fischer-Tropsch but you have no clue what the reactions are or how they are carried out. For instance F-T requires a catalyst. Care to tell us where that occurs in nature such that it functions as a true F-T reaction?

    And, again, at the end of the day for your "hypothesis" to be accurate it has to form porphyrin rings for example.

    I'm willing to watch you provide the class with an actual synthesis route. Not just another youtube pointer. Just tell us the synthesis route and make sure it is one that can exist in a geologic setting.

    Oh yeah, then show us examples where it is KNOWN to have happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    Quantum mechanics just isn't dealt with in any kind of depth in the those types of chemistry classes.
    Wrong.

    Quantum is discussed at the start and throughout all of chemistry. Even intro. Remember the Quantum Numbers (n, l, ml, ms) and all that talk about spin up and spin down (the little arrows you put in the orbital diagrams? The ones that pointed up and down) those were quantum features.

    Here's some examples (If you didn't do a fuck ton of these in intro chemistry then you didn't take intro chemistry any time in the last 60 years)



    See that "1s, 2s, 2p" stuff? Those are ORBITALS. The little arrows are electrons. The up pointing ones have different SPIN than the down pointing ones. That's all 100% quantum. Note that you don't just fill them up from left to right. When you get to the p-orbitals you have to fill in all of them with one spin then go back through and fill with the other spin (Hund's rule). That's all quantum.

    In the intro chemistry class I had back in '82 we spent a PAINFULLY large amount of time on quantum. Sure we weren't solving the Schroedinger equation or anything but we were dealing with quantum.

    Even the Bohr model dealt with quantum concepts (quantization of energy states). But I'm genuinely curious what you think all those orbitals what all those s, p, and d things you had to fill out over and over and over in class.

    Remember this little rubric?


    What do you think you were doing there? That's quantum mechanics. You are filling ORBITALS in a specific ORDER related to ENERGY of the electron.

    How about these?

    And what about your minerals classes? Surely you had to learn Pauling's Rules to make it through mineralogy. Those are leveraged off the sizes of atoms. Which, as you know, is related to the electron cloud around the nucleus. Those atoms have the size they do because of...you guessed it...qm. Ever wonder why atoms get SMALLER from left to right across the periodic table? Yup...QM. Filling electrons. Wonder why they get bigger going from top to bottom in the Groups? Yup. Filling electron shells and adding higher shells onto it. QM again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Phimosis View Post
    Wrong.

    Quantum is discussed at the start and throughout all of chemistry. Even intro. Remember the Quantum Numbers (n, l, ml, ms) and all that talk about spin up and spin down (the little arrows you put in the orbital diagrams? The ones that pointed up and down) those were quantum features.

    Here's some examples (If you didn't do a fuck ton of these in intro chemistry then you didn't take intro chemistry any time in the last 60 years)



    See that "1s, 2s, 2p" stuff? Those are ORBITALS. The little arrows are electrons. The up pointing ones have different SPIN than the down pointing ones. That's all 100% quantum. Note that you don't just fill them up from left to right. When you get to the p-orbitals you have to fill in all of them with one spin then go back through and fill with the other spin (Hund's rule). That's all quantum.

    In the intro chemistry class I had back in '82 we spent a PAINFULLY large amount of time on quantum. Sure we weren't solving the Schroedinger equation or anything but we were dealing with quantum.

    Even the Bohr model dealt with quantum concepts (quantization of energy states). But I'm genuinely curious what you think all those orbitals what all those s, p, and d things you had to fill out over and over and over in class.

    Remember this little rubric?


    What do you think you were doing there? That's quantum mechanics. You are filling ORBITALS in a specific ORDER related to ENERGY of the electron.

    How about these?

    And what about your minerals classes? Surely you had to learn Pauling's Rules to make it through mineralogy. Those are leveraged off the sizes of atoms. Which, as you know, is related to the electron cloud around the nucleus. Those atoms have the size they do because of...you guessed it...qm. Ever wonder why atoms get SMALLER from left to right across the periodic table? Yup...QM. Filling electrons. Wonder why they get bigger going from top to bottom in the Groups? Yup. Filling electron shells and adding higher shells onto it. QM again.
    Yeah I learned that in high school chemistry class. We were introduced to Quantum Physics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Yeah I learned that in high school chemistry class. We were introduced to Quantum Physics.
    Yes it is very key to chemistry. And obviously those of us that took chemistry classes had to learn it. Like I said to Cypress earlier it's not like we were solving the Schroedinger equations to arrive at the orbital shapes but we were working with QM intensively in the classes.

    And at the end of the day quantum is the core of chemistry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Phimosis View Post
    So go ahead and show the class how you can get a porphyrin ring from Fischer-Tropsch in a geologic setting.
    OK class, now Perry was very brave to raise his hand and ask a question. Very well done Perry; you get a gold star for today.

    Class, porphyrin rings are organic constructs that do not come into play in the formation of hydrocarbons. Perry, remember that; you have been told this before.

    The Fischer-Tropsch reaction is like any other chemical reaction, i.e. if the conditions exist for the reaction to happen then the chemical reaction will happen. The Fischer-Tropsch process requires carbon, hydrogen and a metal catalyst, all of which all plentiful in the earth's crust.

    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Phimosis View Post
    Oh yeah, then show us examples where it is KNOWN to have happened.
    I'm going to throw this back at you.

    1. Explain how you believe organic matter somehow arrived beneath impermeable rock and then somehow decayed into a higher form of energy in violation of the second law of thermodynamics.
    2. Explain how the Fischer-Tropsch process actually does not form hydrocarbons
    -2a. Exlain how the earth's crust is actually devoid of carbon, hydrogen, metal catalysts or of any of the conditions necessary for the Fischer-Tropsch reaction to occur.
    -2b. How is the abundance of these conditions at the edges of tectonic plates? Explain.
    3. Explain how it is KNOWN that your biological-matter-to-hydrocarbons process ever actually happened, without claiming biological markers that don't exist and without claiming omniscience that you do not have.

    I think it's about time you did some value-added explaining. I'm listening. The floor is yours.
    Global Warming violates the 1st LoT by claiming a magical creation of thermal energy out of nothing, in the form of a temperature increase, which is somehow caused by a magical substance.
    Greenhouse Effect violates Stefan-Boltzmann and black body science by claiming that an increase in earth's temperature is somehow caused by a decrease in earth's radiance.
    Greenhouse Effect violates the 2nd LoT by claiming that the cooler atmosphere somehow heats the warmer earth's surface.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Yeah I learned that in high school chemistry class. We were introduced to Quantum Physics.
    1. What were you taught about quantum physics?
    2. What percentage of what you were taught did you learn?
    3. What percentage of what you learned do you remember?
    4. How much of what you believe you remember is actually correct?

    Remember, all this time you've been thinking that geology is chemistry and I had to correct you. Too funny.

    Do you think someone can learn chemistry without learning any quantum anything?
    Global Warming violates the 1st LoT by claiming a magical creation of thermal energy out of nothing, in the form of a temperature increase, which is somehow caused by a magical substance.
    Greenhouse Effect violates Stefan-Boltzmann and black body science by claiming that an increase in earth's temperature is somehow caused by a decrease in earth's radiance.
    Greenhouse Effect violates the 2nd LoT by claiming that the cooler atmosphere somehow heats the warmer earth's surface.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IBDaMann View Post
    1. What were you taught about quantum physics?
    2. What percentage of what you were taught did you learn?
    3. What percentage of what you learned do you remember?
    4. How much of what you believe you remember is actually correct?

    Remember, all this time you've been thinking that geology is chemistry and I had to correct you. Too funny.

    Do you think someone can learn chemistry without learning any quantum anything?
    1. Atomic orbitals and the Bohr model for examples.
    2. What kind of question is that?
    3. What kind of question is that?
    4. What kind of question is that?

    I never claimed that geology is chemistry. Your imagination is too funny.

    Sure someone can learn chemistry without quantum physics. It's a dumb question. Do better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Perry Phimosis View Post
    Wrong.

    Quantum is discussed at the start and throughout all of chemistry. Even intro. Remember the Quantum Numbers (n, l, ml, ms) and all that talk about spin up and spin down (the little arrows you put in the orbital diagrams? The ones that pointed up and down) those were quantum features.

    Here's some examples (If you didn't do a fuck ton of these in intro chemistry then you didn't take intro chemistry any time in the last 60 years)



    See that "1s, 2s, 2p" stuff? Those are ORBITALS. The little arrows are electrons. The up pointing ones have different SPIN than the down pointing ones. That's all 100% quantum. Note that you don't just fill them up from left to right. When you get to the p-orbitals you have to fill in all of them with one spin then go back through and fill with the other spin (Hund's rule). That's all quantum.

    In the intro chemistry class I had back in '82 we spent a PAINFULLY large amount of time on quantum. Sure we weren't solving the Schroedinger equation or anything but we were dealing with quantum.

    Even the Bohr model dealt with quantum concepts (quantization of energy states). But I'm genuinely curious what you think all those orbitals what all those s, p, and d things you had to fill out over and over and over in class.

    Remember this little rubric?


    What do you think you were doing there? That's quantum mechanics. You are filling ORBITALS in a specific ORDER related to ENERGY of the electron.

    How about these?

    And what about your minerals classes? Surely you had to learn Pauling's Rules to make it through mineralogy. Those are leveraged off the sizes of atoms. Which, as you know, is related to the electron cloud around the nucleus. Those atoms have the size they do because of...you guessed it...qm. Ever wonder why atoms get SMALLER from left to right across the periodic table? Yup...QM. Filling electrons. Wonder why they get bigger going from top to bottom in the Groups? Yup. Filling electron shells and adding higher shells onto it. QM again.
    Looks like I sent you off to do a 20 minute internet research project. You don't have much of a life on weekends, eh?

    You didn't say that chemistry used quantum concepts. Though I can understand why you would want to backtrack and modify your original assertion.

    You said that quantum mechanics was the very heart of the science of chemistry.

    Other than presenting students with the (technically incorrect) Bohr model of the atom, introductory college chemistry classes deal with quantum mechanics in a very superficial way, and they certainly don't do anymore than lip service at best to most basic quantum concepts, which are covered with much more rigour and depth in physics classes.

    My challenge to you again is to contact ten universities, and tell them you want a graduate degree in quantum mechanics, and then observe if they refer you to the physics department or the biogeochem department

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    Quote Originally Posted by Into the Night View Post
    No. He's quite capable of doing research on his own, unlike you.
    The fact you have 100% confidence in "his" abilities is interesting, Sybil.
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    2. What kind of question is that?
    I forgot, you can't read.

    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    3. What kind of question is that?
    I forgot, you can't read.

    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    4. What kind of question is that?
    I forgot, you can't read.

    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    I never claimed that geology is chemistry.
    I forgot. You have no memory.

    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Geology is also the science of matter.


    Quote Originally Posted by AProudLefty View Post
    Sure someone can learn chemistry without quantum physics.
    Then how can quantum physics be the core of chemistry if one can learn chemistry without learning quantum physics?

    Global Warming violates the 1st LoT by claiming a magical creation of thermal energy out of nothing, in the form of a temperature increase, which is somehow caused by a magical substance.
    Greenhouse Effect violates Stefan-Boltzmann and black body science by claiming that an increase in earth's temperature is somehow caused by a decrease in earth's radiance.
    Greenhouse Effect violates the 2nd LoT by claiming that the cooler atmosphere somehow heats the warmer earth's surface.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IBDaMann View Post
    Yes, child.

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