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Thread: Bringing the alien life debate back to reality

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    I would find it difficult to believe that in an infinite universe,
    there aren't an infinite number of planets so similar to our earth
    that the life forms living on them would be pretty much the same a well.

    The real issue is that it can't possibly matter to us.
    If they're similar to us, they can't survive the interstellar travel any more than we can.
    We'll never interact, so we're completely irrelevant to one another.
    Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson, 1775
    Religion....is the opiate of the people. Karl Marx, 1848
    Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose. Kris Kristofferson, 1969

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    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick View Post
    I would find it difficult to believe that in an infinite universe,
    there aren't an infinite number of planets so similar to our earth
    that the life forms living on them would be pretty much the same a well.

    The real issue is that it can't possibly matter to us.
    If they're similar to us, they can't survive the interstellar travel any more than we can.
    We'll never interact, so we're completely irrelevant to one another.
    An infinite universe is an assumption that requires several mathmatical constructs to be true, first and foremost that spacetime has zero curvature beyond our field of vision. It seems to have zero curvature, but that inference is limited to our field of vision and the precision of our instrumentation.

    My second comment is that we will never be able to surmise if there is life in other galaxies, due to the distances involved.

    But I'm not sure that matters.

    By the standards of the cosmos, we live in a very large and complex galaxy of almost infinite variety. If we can't find life in this galaxy, I'm not sure why we would conclude if must exist in other galaxies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    An infinite universe is an assumption that requires several mathmatical constructs to be true, first and foremost that spacetime has zero curvature beyond our field of vision. It seems to have zero curvature, but that inference is limited to our field of vision and the precision of our instrumentation.

    My second comment is that we will never be able to surmise if there is life in other galaxies, due to the distances involved.

    But I'm not sure that matters.

    By the standards of the cosmos, we live in a very large and complex galaxy of almost infinite variety. If we can't find life in this galaxy, I'm not sure why we would conclude if must exist in other galaxies.

    How can the universe not be infinite?

    if it has boundaries, what exists beyond them?

    Since universe means everything, that would have to be part of the universe as well.
    Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson, 1775
    Religion....is the opiate of the people. Karl Marx, 1848
    Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose. Kris Kristofferson, 1969

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    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick View Post
    How can the universe not be infinite?

    if it has boundaries, what exists beyond them?

    Since universe means everything, that would have to be part of the universe as well.
    Sooooo.....you don't accept the Big Bang theory nor see the Universe as a bubble?
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Dutch View Post
    Sooooo.....you don't accept the Big Bang theory nor see the Universe as a bubble?
    One, I'm not big on sitcoms.

    Two, the only bubbles that I care about are in Dom Perignon.
    Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson, 1775
    Religion....is the opiate of the people. Karl Marx, 1848
    Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose. Kris Kristofferson, 1969

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    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick View Post
    One, I'm not big on sitcoms.

    Two, the only bubbles that I care about are in Dom Perignon.
    Then it's understandable why you are confused. Enjoy your morning champagne.
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick View Post
    How can the universe not be infinite?

    if it has boundaries, what exists beyond them?

    Since universe means everything, that would have to be part of the universe as well.
    If spacetime has positive curvature, then space maintains a spherical shape, and if you set off in one direction, trillions of years later you would end up back where you started from.

    The universe isn't expanding into anything, into any preexisting void. It is the space itself between the galaxies which is expanding.

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    Why would anyone bring pretzels of all things, on a 6,300 year space voyage?
    https://i.postimg.cc/PqVCnGks/gojoe1.jpg
    C'MON MAN!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet View Post
    why assume alien life would require amino acids, peptides or organic compounds?......
    Because it's a good conservative scientific assumption to focus our search on carbon based life that at least loosely followed the known laws of biology.

    The Earth had has four billion years for silicon based life or other exotic forms of life to emerge. But we've never seen anything other than the one lineage of carbon based life all descended with modification from the same microbe which existed 3.8 billion years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    If spacetime has positive curvature, then space maintains a spherical shape, and if you set off in one direction, trillions of years later you would end up back where you started from.

    The universe isn't expanding into anything, into any preexisting void. It is the space itself between the galaxies which is expanding.
    I don't understand the concept of the spherical shape of space
    as a sphere always exists in whatever is outside it's circumference.

    What's outside of the sphere would be part of the same infinite universe the way I can imagine it.
    Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson, 1775
    Religion....is the opiate of the people. Karl Marx, 1848
    Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose. Kris Kristofferson, 1969

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Dutch View Post
    Not a biochemist, but your previous posts about the origin of life back up the conclusion that photosynthesis is not a requirement.
    I think the author is also on shaky ground in claiming that all the hypotheses for the mechanism of abiogenesis are terrible. To me, that's calling the game when it's still in the second quarter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PostmodernProphet View Post
    why assume alien life would require amino acids, peptides or organic compounds?......
    Not a biochemist, but from previous posts on the subject it appears that carbon and silicon are the most likely base-elements of life due to how many combinations of molecules can be formed from them.

    Not saying a lifeform couldn't evolve from Uranium, but if it did, it wouldn't look like anything recognizable by humans. Maybe a planet could be "alive", but how could we hope to communicate with a creature whose "seconds" are equal to multiple human generations?
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by NiftyNiblick View Post
    I don't understand the concept of the spherical shape of space
    as a sphere always exists in whatever is outside it's circumference.

    What's outside of the sphere would be part of the same infinite universe the way I can imagine it.
    The stories I've read is that you can't think of it as a sphere with a two dimensional surface hanging in space like a balloon or globe.

    The sphere is the only analogy our simian brains can grasp without higher mathematics.

    Three dimensional positively curved space itself wraps around a fourth dimensional hyperspace we cannot percieve through sensory perception.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    I think the author is also on shaky ground in claiming that all the hypotheses for the mechanism of abiogenesis are terrible. To me, that's calling the game when it's still in the second quarter.
    I think his point was that "if making life was easy, we'd have done it by now"...and I agree. Despite all of our efforts and searching, life is only found on Earth and we can't create life, only modify it.
    God bless America and those who defend our Constitution.

    "Hatred is a failure of imagination" - Graham Greene, "The Power and the Glory"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
    The stories I've read is that you can't think of it as a sphere with a two dimensional surface hanging in space like a balloon or globe.

    The sphere is the only analogy our simian brains can grasp without higher mathematics.

    Three dimensional positively curved space itself wraps around a fourth dimensional hyperspace we cannot percieve through sensory perception.
    Possibly.
    I'm too old, perhaps, to imagine that which is not perceptible to my senses.
    Not saying, however, that it's an inappropriate thing to do for those so inclined.
    Interesting discussions, at the very least, do come of it.
    Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Samuel Johnson, 1775
    Religion....is the opiate of the people. Karl Marx, 1848
    Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose. Kris Kristofferson, 1969

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