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Thread: 'Never Been a Better Time to Buy an Electric Car': Auto Expert

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    Quote Originally Posted by Into the Night View Post
    Yup. He's stuck with it. Now he has to live with it.
    So you do not understand it at all. EV owners are very happy with them. https://pluginamerica.org/about-us/e...ehicle-survey/ You are always wrong and keep the same shitty attitude.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Yea, sure... That'll work... Let's see... You have an older shitty battery in your car. You go to a swap location and they give you a fresh, charged, new or almost new, one. You happily drive off having taken the swap station for a bunch of chumps...

    Nobody is going to do that because they won't know the condition of your battery versus the one you are getting. Then there's the issue that batteries are different for different models of car and manufacturer. Such a station would have to have hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in stocking a range of batteries for different cars, and the swap out process would vary by vehicle. The swap process would also take quite some time as those batteries aren't just a few connections.
    Not only aren't there just a few connections, many are mounted in the chassis (between the frame rails). Expensive!
    That means removal of the car's body to access them. One would think that would take a bit longer than 2 minutes
    Common sense is not a gift, it's a punishment because you have to deal with everyone who doesn't have it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordberg View Post
    So you do not understand it at all. EV owners are very happy with them. https://pluginamerica.org/about-us/e...ehicle-survey/ You are always wrong and keep the same shitty attitude.
    Yeah. You are happy with your Chevy Bolt! *snicker*
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    Quote Originally Posted by RB 60 View Post
    Not only aren't there just a few connections, many are mounted in the chassis (between the frame rails). Expensive!
    That means removal of the car's body to access them. One would think that would take a bit longer than 2 minutes
    While it doesn't require removal of the car's body to dismount the batteries, it does require disassembling part of the frame. Some require removing the wheels and suspension as well.

    For a piece of shit like a Chevy Bolt, it requires instead removal of most the rear interior and seats, rear wheels, and suspension. It also requires a specially designed crane. That battery weighs twice as much as a V8 truck engine.

    No...it ain't gonna be any two minutes to remove the battery from these things!

    Even worse, suppose you did all that. Now the swap station has a pile of dead battery packs that must be charged and has run out of charged ones. The charging requirements are the same. So instead of waiting at a charging station for someone to clear a spot for you, you are waiting with a disassembled car waiting for one of the packs to finish recharging. You've save nothing for all your work.
    Last edited by Into the Night; 02-02-2023 at 01:38 AM.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
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    For the twits that think gasoline cars are 'ancient technology':

    The gasoline engine has seen a lot of improvements over the years. Despite mandates for stupid shit on engines, such as the catalytic converter (basically a 'pollution to pollution' converter), simple changes have done much to improve efficiency, mileage, reliability, and performance.

    The EGR system, a simple bit of plumbing and a valve, has virtually eliminated the smog problem.

    FADEC designs have eliminated the inefficient carburetor and all of it's compensation circuits, and eliminated high tension wiring, distributors with their mechanical dwell points, the need for induction heating, and opened better opportunity to include variable cam timing (improving performance and efficiency!), overhead cam systems (improving efficiency), and such niceties as better cruise control (without associated vacuum solenoids and cables, since throttles are not electronically controlled) complete with follower capability, and cylinder shutoff during deceleration and coasting (improving efficiency). All FADEC engines are now MPFI. No more fuel coming out of suspension in the induction system!

    The sensors themselves can help to more quickly pinpoint any failure in the engine, improving troubleshooting.

    Transmissions have improved a lot too, now allowing better translation of power to the road with fewer friction components and better designs for gear ratios. Four wheel drive is much more common too, thanks to flexible shaft couplers and improvements in metallurgy.

    Better gaskets now available improve reliability as well, and are now better able to handle ethanol exposure without degradation. The hydroscopic nature of ethanol as the moderator is better tolerated by these gaskets and sealants as well.

    Even the gasoline has improved a lot, despite the ethanol requirements. More refineries are capable of handling sour fuels, make use of fractioning and synthesis to improve yield, and even improved separation issues with the moderator (even with ethanol!).

    Computers for automotive use have made a tremendous difference. It is the core of FADEC, and has been extended to FADTC and they tie together for the best combination of efficiency, even incorporating some learning algorithms to adjust to your style of driving and make the best use of it.
    They make the cabin more comfortable too, providing everything from fancy dashboard to entertainment systems, HVAC, locks, windows, lighting, and situational awareness (things like proximity sensors, lane change sensors, backup cameras, auto headlight tracking and dimming, etc).

    Even the lowly tire and wheel have sensors now...measuring tire pressure, wheel speed for cruise control and traction control purposes, and antilock braking systems. Most of the time standard equipment.

    All of this makes the car more comfortable and safer to drive. Many of these features are standard equipment now.

    The latest technology is still being applied to the gasoline engine and the car it's mounted in. It ain't done yet! The LAST thing these engines are is 'ancient'!


    And their advantage? They are quickly refueled in just a few minutes. Lines for fueling are very rare, due to the number of gas stations. They have high performance and light weight. They are cheaper. Their reliability is very high. They are efficient, since there is only one energy conversion (heat engine to mechanical). Gasoline has the highest energy of any common fuel by volume.

    Diesel designs are just as advanced. Better control of fuel flow and better glow plugs mean the engine starts easier and is less susceptible to runaway. Due to the high compression, diesel has the advantage of very high torque, while the gasoline engine has the advantage of high efficiency (but with lower torque under heavy load). This makes the diesel design ideally suited for trucks, locomotives, tractors, and ships (such as most container ships). Sour fuels are less of a problem now as well.

    The present EV is basically not much different from designs from 2012. Manufacturing techniques have improved to mass manufacture the batteries, and the motors have been replaced with external rotor designs making use of power oscillators to improve frequency feed to the coils, but otherwise little has changed.
    They still suffer from heavy batteries (yes, Li-ion batteries are heavy!), and poor efficiency due to numerous energy conversions to support the charging cycle and again during the discharge cycle while driving.
    Like other cars, they have four wheel drive capability in some models (most are just two wheel or even one wheel drive). None of the four wheel drive models can pass the single traction test of a slip ramp. (The only car that can is a Subaru, a gasoline car). Like most four wheel drive cars, they can pass the dual traction test of a slip ramp.
    Some GM models can only pass the triple traction test on the slip ramp! (That means three wheels must have traction to make it up the ramp! What a joke!).
    EVs still suffer from high costs as well. The battery packs are extremely heavy and require special equipment to handle. The materials they are made of are not renewable and are somewhat rare, meaning they will only become more expensive as more of these packs are built for cars. Mining lithium ore is usually in the form of lithium salts in a brine (it takes months to years to evaporate out the excess water to produce a usable brine). It is then processed with various acids to remove impurities, then treated with soda ash to produce lithium carbonate (the material shipped from the mine). Lithium also occurs in volcanic rock, but can be mined by drilling and processing it with large amounts of sulfuric acid, then treating it with soda ash to produce the carbonate or sale to produce the chloride. The ore is then shipped to a smelter. Lithium metal is highly reactive, so lithium is shipped from mines either as lithium carbonate or lithium chloride (more common). Most mining is done in Chile, Argentina, Australia, and China. The States also mine lithium (mostly in Nevada), but is not a major producer due to political reasons. Bolivia also has a large reserve of lithium, but again is untapped due to political reasons.

    Lithium is also found in ocean water (in the form of lithium chloride), but is too scarce to be economically feasible to mine it.

    The smelter melts the lithium salt and adds potassium chloride to reduce the melting temperature. The result is molten lithium metal and chlorine gas. Needless to say these two materials are highly reactive and the process is dangerous. The lithium is then packaged with wax to prevent it from reacting (lithium reacts violently with water and even reacts with water vapor in the air).

    A typical battery is made from sheets of copper coated with graphite (the negative terminal), a plastic separator, and a sheet of aluminum coated with nickle and cobalt (the positive terminal). A discharged battery contains lithium atoms within the NCA layer (nickel, cobalt, aluminum). When the battery is charged, electrons are driven to the copper sheet, and the lithium atom, having given up an electron, moves through the separator to the copper graphite side. This movement generates heat, which is why charging a battery heats the battery. As more and more lithium ions lodge in the copper graphite side, it's harder and harder to get lithium atoms to give up an electron and leave the NCA layer, requiring higher voltages to finish the charging. A fully charged Li-ion battery has lithium ions occupying the copper graphite layer, and excess electrons in the copper sheet itself. It is now in a state that wants to return to relaxing the energy. It is charged.

    Discharge of the battery causes the electron to flow out to return to the aluminum NCA layer, while the lithium ion travels back through the separator to recover it's electron. This movement also generates heat, which is why you must cool the batteries while driving (most are liquid cooled, conveying thermal energy to a radiator.
    Yes...EVs are liquid cooled and they do have radiators. From time to time this coolant must be changed, just like any gasoline or diesel engine, as the protective additives break down over time. A coolant leak can be one cause of a battery fire, since lithium is highly reactive, even with water. This can be caused by corrosion, mechanical damage (such a rock or high centering), or just plain galvanic corrosion from the coolant itself.

    The lithium-ion battery has been around since the 70's. It has not changed. The chemistry is the same. The only difference between one lithium-ion cell and another is it's size. In other words, the Li-ion battery 'latest technology' is about 50 years old.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
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    Quote Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner View Post
    Yea, sure... That'll work... Let's see... You have an older shitty battery in your car. You go to a swap location and they give you a fresh, charged, new or almost new, one. You happily drive off having taken the swap station for a bunch of chumps...

    Nobody is going to do that because they won't know the condition of your battery versus the one you are getting. Then there's the issue that batteries are different for different models of car and manufacturer. Such a station would have to have hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in stocking a range of batteries for different cars, and the swap out process would vary by vehicle. The swap process would also take quite some time as those batteries aren't just a few connections.
    You're just making shit up again. You have absolutely NO IDEA how the process will work. You're just rambling because you're butthurt again.

    Cathie Wood is known for her convictions as an investor. And she’s one of Tesla‘s biggest bulls, believing the future of personal transportation is all-electric.
    Wednesday, Wood’s firm, ARK Invest, released its 2023 Big Ideas report, the latest in a series of such annual reports. It covers a variety of big trends that guide ARK’s investing including cryptocurrency, precision healthcare and electric vehicles.
    EVs had a big year in 2022 with global unit sales growing about 62% year over year. Sales of gasoline powered cars and hybrid-electric vehicles declined by about 7%, according to ARK.
    The shift to electric isn’t new. Gasoline and hybrid sales have declined in four of the past five years, which is creating a dilemma for traditional auto makers: They are serving a shrinking market, a reason most car makers have pivoted toward EVs.
    ARK believes the entire industry will accelerate vehicle electrification efforts and projects the industry will spend more than $1 trillion, cumulatively, on EV development over the coming 10 years. The money would go for platform development, plants and battery capacity.
    It’s a huge number, but checks out. The world’s top auto makers spend roughly $120 billion annually on plants and equipment. And auto makers already spend roughly 50% of their capital budgets on EVs. When adding in capital spending by battery makers, its easy to see how spending numbers can approach $100 billion a year.
    That investing should yield benefits such as cheaper EVs that charge quicker. ARK has thoughts about all that.
    Regarding charging, ARK predicts a driver will get about 200 miles of range in 4 minutes by 2027, down from about 200 miles of range in 15 minutes today. That 15-minute figure is based on the newest EVs and fastest direct current chargers.
    In 2020, ARK projected that EVs would cost less than traditional cars by 2022. It didn’t happen last year but it could happen in 2023. A Tesla (ticker: TSLA) Model 3 can be purchased for $44,000 before any government incentives. The average price of a new vehicle in the U.S. at the end of 2022 was about $50,000.
    Putting it all together, ARK sees global EV production hitting 60 million units annually by 2027. That would be roughly 70% of total light vehicle production and is much faster adoption than almost everyone predicts.
    Republican Congressman Ken Buck:
    “We’re at a time in American politics, that I am not going to lie on behalf of my presidential candidate, on behalf of my party. And I’m very sad that others in my party have taken the position that, as long as we get the White House, it doesn’t really matter what we say,”



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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye10 View Post
    The push to outlaw gas cars has run into a problem......far too many people dont want the EV's.

    More force will now be applied.

    What you want is irrelevant.

    "UTOPIA!"
    I don't think so, FawkEwe10:

    (Reuters) - Volvo Cars is gearing up for an electric blitz to convert all its mainstay models - three SUVs and two sedans - into electric vehicles and to introduce a luxury electric van aimed at boosting sales in Asia, two people with knowledge of the plans said.
    The Swedish carmaker, 82%-owned by China’s Zhejiang Geely Holding Group, is expected to launch at least six new battery electric vehicles through 2026, the two people told Reuters.
    Volvo has announced an objective to make its entire lineup fully electric by 2030. The company’s Australia unit has said it plans to sell only EVs in that market by 2026.
    Republican Congressman Ken Buck:
    “We’re at a time in American politics, that I am not going to lie on behalf of my presidential candidate, on behalf of my party. And I’m very sad that others in my party have taken the position that, as long as we get the White House, it doesn’t really matter what we say,”



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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordberg View Post
    China has one they claim is 700 miles after charge. They will just get better and better.

    Yes, and Covid came from a wet market less than 12 miles from the Wuhan Institute of Virology.
    “The Communist party must control the guns.”
    ― Mao Tse-tung



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    Quote Originally Posted by Into the Night View Post
    Yeah. You are happy with your Chevy Bolt! *snicker*
    I have a Volt. My son has a Bolt and a Volt. We will all be EV customers from now on. I have spent zero money on repairs since 2015. I had to replace one tire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordberg View Post
    I have a Volt. My son has a Bolt and a Volt. We will all be EV customers from now on. I have spent zero money on repairs since 2015. I had to replace one tire.
    I have spent zero on maintenance and repairs for my EV as well. The only bad thing about EVs is that AAMCO and Jiffy Lube will need to find another line of work.
    Republican Congressman Ken Buck:
    “We’re at a time in American politics, that I am not going to lie on behalf of my presidential candidate, on behalf of my party. And I’m very sad that others in my party have taken the position that, as long as we get the White House, it doesn’t really matter what we say,”



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    Yea, sure it takes two minutes. Look at the size of the bolts holding that pack in place. They look like 3/4" 10 SAE Grade 5 or 8's. They'd have to be to hold what?, like a ton or more of battery in place on the car.

    I'd say I have a very good idea how the process of removing a ton + of battery goes, particularly compared to Joke Communist here...
    Last edited by T. A. Gardner; 02-02-2023 at 01:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordberg View Post
    I have a Volt. My son has a Bolt and a Volt. We will all be EV customers from now on. I have spent zero money on repairs since 2015. I had to replace one tire.
    Hard to believe....tires don't generally last that long, they break down with age.
    This illegal illegitimate regime that runs America is at fault...not me.... they do not represent me and I have long objected to their crimes against humanity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nordberg View Post
    I have a Volt. My son has a Bolt and a Volt. We will all be EV customers from now on. I have spent zero money on repairs since 2015. I had to replace one tire.
    They are essentially built the same with the same kind of issues.
    Paradox. Irrational.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Capitalist View Post
    You're just making shit up again.
    Inversion fallacy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Capitalist View Post
    You have absolutely NO IDEA how the process will work. You're just rambling because you're butthurt again.
    It doesn't work. There are no 'swap stations'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Capitalist View Post
    Cathie Wood is known for her convictions as an investor. And she’s one of Tesla‘s biggest bulls, believing the future of personal transportation is all-electric.
    Wednesday, Wood’s firm, ARK Invest, released its 2023 Big Ideas report, the latest in a series of such annual reports. It covers a variety of big trends that guide ARK’s investing including cryptocurrency, precision healthcare and electric vehicles.
    EVs had a big year in 2022 with global unit sales growing about 62% year over year. Sales of gasoline powered cars and hybrid-electric vehicles declined by about 7%, according to ARK.
    The shift to electric isn’t new. Gasoline and hybrid sales have declined in four of the past five years, which is creating a dilemma for traditional auto makers: They are serving a shrinking market, a reason most car makers have pivoted toward EVs.
    ARK believes the entire industry will accelerate vehicle electrification efforts and projects the industry will spend more than $1 trillion, cumulatively, on EV development over the coming 10 years. The money would go for platform development, plants and battery capacity.
    It’s a huge number, but checks out. The world’s top auto makers spend roughly $120 billion annually on plants and equipment. And auto makers already spend roughly 50% of their capital budgets on EVs. When adding in capital spending by battery makers, its easy to see how spending numbers can approach $100 billion a year.
    That investing should yield benefits such as cheaper EVs that charge quicker. ARK has thoughts about all that.
    Regarding charging, ARK predicts a driver will get about 200 miles of range in 4 minutes by 2027, down from about 200 miles of range in 15 minutes today. That 15-minute figure is based on the newest EVs and fastest direct current chargers.
    In 2020, ARK projected that EVs would cost less than traditional cars by 2022. It didn’t happen last year but it could happen in 2023. A Tesla (ticker: TSLA) Model 3 can be purchased for $44,000 before any government incentives. The average price of a new vehicle in the U.S. at the end of 2022 was about $50,000.
    Putting it all together, ARK sees global EV production hitting 60 million units annually by 2027. That would be roughly 70% of total light vehicle production and is much faster adoption than almost everyone predicts.
    Argument from randU fallacies. Special pleading fallacies. Speculations. Less than 1% of the cars on the road are EVs.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Capitalist View Post
    I have spent zero on maintenance and repairs for my EV as well. The only bad thing about EVs is that AAMCO and Jiffy Lube will need to find another line of work.
    So you don't take care of your car. Gotit.

    EVs have transmissions. EVs need lubrication to function. Less than 1% of the cars on the road are EVs.
    "The atmosphere is among the factors that determines the Earth's atmosphere." --ZenMode
    "Donald has failed in almost every endeavor he has attempted. " --floridafan
    "Abortion is not a moral issue. " --BidenPresident
    "Propaganda can also be factual." --Flash
    "Even after being vaccinated, you shed virus particles." --Jerome
    "no slavery is forcing another into labor" -archives
    "Evs are much safer from fires" -- Nordberg
    "Abortion has killed no one." -- LurchAddams

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