Why EV's suck on energy efficiency

[BartenderElite]

Computers weren't practical for personal use for decades. And stuff like that.

[Into the Night]

Hydrogen powered ICE and FCEV cars will blow BEVs away.

Probably not. Hydrogen is even more problematic than a battery vehicle is.
* You have to make the hydrogen, a LOT of it. That takes a lot of energy. Hydrogen that is sold today is made by fractioning a hydrocarbon, which creates CO2. You know...that DANGEROUS GAS that somehow manages to violate the 1st and 2nd law of thermodynamics and the Stefan-Boltzmann law.
* You have to compress the hydrogen for transport or storage in the car. That takes energy too.
* Compressed hydrogen causes hydrogen embrittlement in the tanks, making them unsafe. Tanks will have to be inspected by hydrostatic testing approx once each year. ANY corrosion is also a problem. That's 3000psi of flammable gas you're dealing with!
* Even when compressed, energy density is quite low. Hydrogen is a bulky fuel.
* Whether the hydrogen is burned in a reciprocating engine or used in a fuel makes no difference.
* Fuel cells require a large battery ballast.
* Fuel cells require the use of iridium and platinum to manufacture. Two rare and expensive materials. If you think the lithium shortage caused by large numbers of EVs is going to be a problem, you ain't seen nothin' yet!
* Fueling hydrogen cars can easily take up to 30 minutes. The nozzle freezes to the vehicle while fueling, and it takes a good 30 minutes oftentimes to thaw.

Nah. Oil is a naturally occurring resource. It is easy to distill it into gasoline, kerosene, diesel fuel, and many other useful fuels and products. Gasoline has the highest energy density by volume.

Gasoline cars are cheap, easy to fix when required, are just as reliable when new as any EV. They don't require a lot of energy to manufacture the fuel for them. There are fewer conversions of energy, saving losses. Heck...it's quite possible to pick up a used gasoline powered car for cheap (or even free!), fix it up (a couple of thousand, maybe), and sell it for PROFIT. They can tow and carry large useful loads, since the fuel itself is a very minor part of the vehicle weight (20 gallons only weighs about 120 pounds!).

Today's FADEC engines are very reliable. There is no tune-up required. There are no points to adjust or replace. There are no high voltage ignition wires anymore. A few simple sensors are all that's required to run the engine. The rest is fuel trim or to provide better information if something fails. Those sensors are very reliable. I rarely have to replace any of them.

Sure, you have to replace the engine oil every few thousand miles (I recommend synthetic for everything now, except aircraft and some ship engines), and that procedure is simple. Anyone can do it. You can even drive to a local oil change shop and have them do it. It's not a problem. Anyone complaining about this simple procedure is just whining.

EV motors are oil cooled, like transmission oil, they don't need changing unless a problem develops in the device. Automatic transmissions should be changed occasionally (see your service interval for it). This is due to the friction surfaces in a typical automatic transmission. The friction surfaces are very good. They take a LONG time to wear, unless you are abusing the transmission.

Transmission oil in EVs has no friction surfaces. Just gears. That oil doesn't need to be changed unless a problem develops.

Battery coolant does need to be changed. It can plug and corrode like any coolant. Liquid coolant used in gasoline engines should be changed more frequently due to galvanic corrosion between various metals in the engine.

All rubber components should be checked each year. This is just as true for the EV as it is for the gasoline car. Look for cracking, UV damage, heat damage, and that all adhesives used (if any) remains secure.

All cars require regular maintenance of the body and tires. UV, dirt, grime, and road hazards are hard on all of these parts. Brakes should be serviced when shoes are worn. EVs, although they have regenerative braking, DO wear out their brakes at about the same rate, since the car is heavier.

Hydrogen cars are certainly lighter than EVs, but the problems with making and handling the hydrogen just don't cut it.

[Into the Night]

Anhydrous ammonia fuel is another alternative that works. It was first used widely in Belgium during WW 2 during the German occupation because gasoline was unavailable. The Brussels public transit system ran all their busses on it converting extant ICE engines to use it. In a fuel cell it is more efficient.

So, the myopic view that batteries are it and the future are exactly that, a myopic and dead end view of the future of personal transportation.

Fuel cells require a large battery pack to ballast the electrical load.

Now let's look at ammonia as a fuel, either in a reciprocating engine or in a fuel cell.

This fuel is extremely toxic and dangerous. Like hydrogen, it too must be manufactured. It is manufactured from hydrogen (which also must be manufactured). The Haber-Bosch process, which is used to make ammonia, fixates nitrogen from the air using hydrogen. All you are doing is adding another step beyond that required for hydrogen cars.

This process is used to make much of the fertilizer we use today. The hydrogen used to make ammonia is generally obtained from hydrocarbons, leaving CO2 as the waste product. Why not just use the hydrocarbons as the fuel instead of mucking about in all that excess chemistry?

[Into the Night]

Computers weren't practical for personal use for decades. And stuff like that.

A computer isn't a car.

Ya canna' change the laws of physics, cap'n.
Li-ion batteries are the lightest batteries we can make. Batteries made from any other metals are going to be heavier. Li-ion batteries have a very low internal resistance, making them ideal for EVs.
This type of battery is ideal for lightweight portable devices too.
Speaking of computers, many of them use a real time clock chip (which also incorporates a bit of memory for general use). These typically hold the BIOS settings in PC. These chips have an extremely low current requirement, and can be powered with a simple Li-ion coin battery for several years. When the system is plugged in, the RTC chip draws power from the lines, saving the battery. Desktop PCs and many remote controls tend to favor the CR2032 battery, easily available at your local grocery or drug store. Many other devices, such as cell phones, laptops, game console controllers (such as Nintendo Switch Joycons), make use of a custom flat pack Li-ion battery. These must be special ordered to replace them, and they are basically not designed to be replaced easily. Other game controllers just stick to replaceable AA alkaline 'dry' cells, such as the Nintendo WiiMote or the battery powered Xbox controllers (the Nintendo WiiU controller uses a custom flatpack). The consoles themselves generally use custom flatpacks.

Li-ion batteries are, of course, rechargeable, unlike the Li-metal batteries (which aren't used much anymore due to their extreme fire hazard characteristics).

Li-ion batteries are not easily recycled. That process requires special equipment and hazardous materials (such as strong acids) to do it.
Lead acid batteries typically the starter battery found in gasoline and diesel cars is VERY recyclable. The plastic casing is chewed into recycled plastic to make new cases, the lead is melted down to make new plates, and the only waste product is a weak sulfuric acid (easily neutralized by a weak alkaline such as sodium bicarbonate then discarded as a useless salt), and the sulfur (usually it's discarded as a sulfate salt).

Even most of the entire gasoline car is easily recyclable. Not so with EVs.

I am always amused by the 'future of technology' chant from EV enthusiasts. EV's were around a long time BEFORE gasoline cars became popular!
The thing that always kills the EV is cost and performance. Like any fad, this one appears from time to time and makes a big splash, only to fade away again.

[Into the Night]

Our overlords clearly dont care. Going forwards most people wont even be able to have cars under their plans. You might be able to call a car if your social credit score is good enough but mostly you will walk or ride a bike or something like that. Some people say that OneWheels are nice.

Fortunately, such 'overlords' have no power to stop people from driving and making cars.
It's just too easy for another car company to come along to satisfy the market.

[LurchAddams]

If you live in a temperate area and mainly toodle around town or commute to work and need a nice looking late model ride, they can be an effective choice.

If you live in hot or cold areas it becomes less so and will require that you have a garage.

If you travel it starts to become a worse idea. The more you travel, the worse it gets.

If you need hauling ability again it becomes less effective.

My gas vehicle has a range of just under 400 miles per tank, which is not much more than most EV's. As far as hauling ability, why don't you google the F-150 Lightning and take a look at its specs? It's good to educate oneself before posting, Tiger.

[Hawkeye10]

Fortunately, such 'overlords' have no power to stop people from driving and making cars.
It's just too easy for another car company to come along to satisfy the market.

Riiiiight.......

[LurchAddams]

40-50 hours
Level 1 chargers can take 40-50 hours to charge a battery electric vehicle (BEV) from empty and 5-6 hours to charge a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) from empty.Feb 2, 2022

You come home from work on Monday and have to wait til Wed. for your car battery to be charged.

evconnect.com

DC fast chargers take 45 minutes to fully charge. People use that for travel. Try having lunch and gassing up in under 45 minutes.

Boy, you guys and your propaganda are fun.

[T. A. Gardner]

DC fast chargers take 45 minutes to fully charge. People use that for travel. Try having lunch and gassing up in under 45 minutes.

Boy, you guys and your propaganda are fun.

I plan on driving to White Sands to get some research at the base museum there in the near future. Two gas stops in Wilcox and Deming all of maybe 20 minutes total including exit and reentry onto the highway. Do a solid 80 mph the whole way with maybe a bit of a reduction through Tucson and Phoenix. None of the other towns or cities are big enough to effect that other than if a highway patrol is lurking...

9 to 10 hours drive. Looking at an EV charging station map by the DoE, that stretch from about Benson AZ to White Sands looks pretty baren for charging stations too...

[Into the Night]

Maybe later in the video he switched to something about energy efficiency, but for the first 3 minutes all he talked about was energy volume efficiency. That is kind of important, but is very different than energy efficiency.

Obviously you never watched the video.

An ICE engine needs to be running all the time, even when it is not needed, which is a massive energy inefficiency.

No, it doesn't. You turn the car off when you park it. Several cars (and most gas powered golf carts) automatically shut off when stopped, and start again when you accelerate. Most modern FADEC cars today shut down unneeded cylinders when decelerating or stopped. They simply don't receive fuel.

It also has built into it lots of friction, which is another inefficiency.

Apparently you have never heard of lubrication. Did you know the EV also requires lubrication?

It is not that hard to get an electric motor to be 90% efficient,

Electric motors don't have an efficiency rating.

where it is virtually impossible to get a combustion engine to 50% efficiency without combining it with an electric motor.

A modern reciprocating gasoline engine often runs at or close to 50% efficiency. The rest is waste heat, which can be tapped to heat the cabin of the car in winter.

So a modern diesel locomotive gets slightly above 50% efficiency,

No, it doesn't. It is a heat engine like any other.

because the diesel engine runs at one speed, charging batteries that run an electric motor that actually moves the train.

No. Batteries are not used to run the traction motors on a diesel-electric locomotive. The diesel engine's throttle is adjusted to the demands of the load.

Electric only trains are even more efficient because you eliminate the friction of the diesel engine.

No. That electricity must be generated (using a heat engine usually), then converted (generating waste heat) up to a voltage for transmission (generating waste heat), then reconverted down (generating waste heat) to distribution lines running for long distances along the tracks (which generates waste heat), tapped by the locomotive(s), then used to run the traction motors (which also generates waste heat).

Such trains use about half again or even twice the energy of a diesel electric locomotive or even of a steam locomotive.

He is right that, currently, gasoline has better volume efficiency than batteries.

You obviously didn't watch the video.

[Into the Night]

My gas vehicle has a range of just under 400 miles per tank, which is not much more than most EV's. As far as hauling ability, why don't you google the F-150 Lightning and take a look at its specs? It's good to educate oneself before posting, Tiger.

At the end of it's range, a gasoline vehicle requires only a few minutes to refuel. An EV requires much longer time to recharge, even lasting into hours, depending on the charger you can find, and doesn't have the range or the performance.
The F-150E (the Lightning) is a joke. It can't haul a full load for anything much behind a 100 miles. It is impractical as a truck. That sucker is expensive too.

Did you know the best selling vehicle last year was the Ford F-150 (gasoline powered), followed by the Chevy Silverado (gasoline powered) and the Dodge RAM (gasoline powered). All trucks. All gasoline powered.

[Into the Night]

Riiiiight.......

I already know you have given up and are being defeatist. There is really no point to that.

[LurchAddams]

I plan on driving to White Sands to get some research at the base museum there in the near future. Two gas stops in Wilcox and Deming all of maybe 20 minutes total including exit and reentry onto the highway. Do a solid 80 mph the whole way with maybe a bit of a reduction through Tucson and Phoenix. None of the other towns or cities are big enough to effect that other than if a highway patrol is lurking...

9 to 10 hours drive. Looking at an EV charging station map by the DoE, that stretch from about Benson AZ to White Sands looks pretty baren for charging stations too...

Have a nice trip!

[Into the Night]

DC fast chargers take 45 minutes to fully charge.

IF you can find one. IF there is no line for it. IF you stick to the freeways where these are located.

People use that for travel.

IF you can meet all the conditions above.

Try having lunch and gassing up in under 45 minutes.

I eat on the go while I'm traveling. It's easy.
I don't waste 45 minutes fueling up my vehicle. I can fuel it up along most any road. I don't have to stick to freeways. I don't have to carefully plan to be exactly out of power just as I reach that rare level 3 charger. I don't have to wait in line for it. Fueling stations for gasoline cars are numerous and in every town. I can drive at the posted speed (and even faster) without sacrificing range that much.

Do you know how many Teslas I blow by on 80mph freeways because they are driving 60 to save charge? You twits are a hazard, dude!

[Celticguy]

IF you also have a home (and probably garage) to charge it.

The garage is already basically required to be practical on any level, so this is superfluous.

Quite right. The more you travel, the more you will have to stay in many hotels because your car needs charging, which takes a significant amount of time out of your travel time.

Quite right. Batteries are heavy, even Li-ion batteries. That's useful load you don't get.

Ever wonder why there are no practical electric airplanes? The same thing affects cars and trucks.

It's all about power to weight ratio and useful load capacity.

Its a little like those tiny Smartcars. if all you do is bop around town or to work they're fine.

But for me the late model requirement is key since these batteries don't last forever. But there are just not that many people whose needs suit the limitations.