Sending Tanks To The Ukraine.

**moon** · 01-25-2023, 04:49 AM

Just over a year ago Germany and Russia were in business together, providing cheap fuel to most of Europe. Today , Germany is providing military equipment in the hope of killing Russians.

How did that abrupt change happen ?

SEPTEMBER 2020

Biden Must Follow the Law and Sanction Nord Stream Now
Why has the administration been so half-hearted on a malign Russian influence project?

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/03/29...ions-congress/

This is Biden's Nord Stream war . It is as a result of the ' malign ' cooperation between Russia and Europe which ran contrary to Washington's hegemonic interests.

**Walt** · 01-25-2023, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by anonymoose

With the weapons the West could give to Ukraine they could probably win fairly easily.

Complex weapons are complex to operate, so it would take years to train Ukrainians in all western weapons. Even if we could train them in all western weapons, it is an open question whether they would win easily.

I believe there is a chance that NATO tanks could break through Russian frontlines, and then create a blitzkrieg situation where the Russians would be comparatively easily defeated. But also, the Russians might have better defenses against NATO tanks than we ever thought. The good part for us is we will find out without risking American lives. The good part for the Ukrainians is we are giving them a chance in the defense of their country. It is a win/win situation for us and the Ukrainians.

Two things should not be ignored. Getting across a major river in combat is not easy, and keeping tanks that have broken through frontlines supplied is also not easy. NATO tanks are fuel hogs, so it makes it all the more difficult.

If Putin is smart, he will keep highly targeted missiles in reserve to attack any temporary bridges.

**Walt** · 01-25-2023, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Hawkeye10

Highly unlikely...the Chinese steal whatever they want.

The Chinese are just human beings, not wizards. They have no magical powers.

They have had a lot of success, but especially lately, a lot of failure too.

**moon** · 01-25-2023, 08:24 AM

Has the US military published any data on the effects of tactical nuclear weapons blast and radiation penetration on Abrams tanks and associated crew survival rates ?

Or is the sending of Abrams to Ukraine seen as an opportunity to gather such data ?

**Walt** · 01-25-2023, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Hawkeye10

Following a media report about mass outages of the Puma infantry fighting vehicle during a recent drill, German Defense Minister Christine Lambrecht said the manufacturers must fix any problems quickly or see the program canceled.

What they dont say is in a recent exercise every single one turned up non-op. Also that this sort of shit performance from the Germans has become rountine.

The Puma Infantry Fighting Vehicle is a very different vehicle than the Leopard 2 Main Battle Tank. They look kind of the same, but they are completely different categories of weapon systems.

The Leopard 2 shares many characteristics with the Abrams, because the Abrams was designed with German help at the same time as the Leopard 2. They are not interchangeable, but they make most of the same design decisions.

**debatefix** · 01-25-2023, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Apollyon 2023

Those were both capitalism vs communism wars

In other words, nothing.

**debatefix** · 01-25-2023, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Apollyon 2023

While we supply arms

As long as it isn't the American doing the fighting, that doesn't matter.

**Mason Michaels** · 01-25-2023, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by debatefix

As long as it isn't the American doing the fighting, that doesn't matter.

Utopian pov!
Live by the sword die by the sword

**debatefix** · 01-25-2023, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by T. A. Gardner

The Communist Comintern, or International, and its successors, was predicated on world domination by Communism. Assisting any group that was furthering that goal was supported.

https://www.marxists.org/history/int...tern/index.htm

Supporting a particular political cult doesn't gain anything. And in case you don't know, there were communist countries who were still bitter rivals with another.

**debatefix** · 01-25-2023, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by Walt

Even as recently as a few years ago, Russians were in command on attacks on American troops in Syria. They provided tanks and aircraft... AND TANK DRIVERS AND AIRCRAFT PILOTS... to attack Americans. We are providing Ukraine with weapons to defend themselves. It is Putin's fault that he is the one invading Ukraine.

Did you hear their most recent excuse? They are now claiming Ukraine was going to be invaded by Poland, and they are just invading to help protect Ukraine.

As far as I have heard, Russian troops and American troops never directly fought each other in Syria.

**debatefix** · 01-25-2023, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Walt

You make a good point, but I disagree with you. During the Korean War, American troops came within a hundred miles of the Chinese border, and within two hundred miles of the Russian border. While that part of Russia is very far from the heart of Russia, Russia and China did feel immediately threatened. China felt so immediately threatened they joined the war to keep from having American troops on their border.

Vietnam also shares a border with China, but that is a little different. China and Vietnam fought a war along that border, and American troops never approached that border. Still there was a huge American fleet in the South China Sea... That could not have been a good thing for China.

The possibility of Allied troops on the Chinese border After defeating NK was a shit excuse for getting involved.

**debatefix** · 01-25-2023, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by Apollyon 2023

Utopian pov!
Live by the sword die by the sword

If we aren't doing the fighting, it isn't us playing the world's cops. That's the end of the story.

**Althea** · 01-25-2023, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by LurchAddams

Perhaps, but it's not just Germany. America's reluctant as well.

I've been saying it for a year, and many disagree.

The world is terrified of Putin. So we all sit back and watch him commit genocide, while we clutch our pearls. All because we believe he is crazy enough to start Armageddon.

Each day, Putin's mouthpieces offer idle threats about what will happen with each escalation. All of it bullshit.

NATO and non NATO nations should have put this to rest on day one.

Perhaps it was wise to progress slowly and garner worldwide support?

Right now, 40% of Ukraine's infrastructure is gone. At what point do we stop clutching?

**Mason Michaels** · 01-25-2023, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by debatefix

If we aren't doing the fighting, it isn't us playing the world's cops. That's the end of the story.

Live by the sword die by the sword!
Supplying arms is living (and profiting) sword!

**LurchAddams** · 01-25-2023, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Althea

I've been saying it for a year, and many disagree.

The world is terrified of Putin. So we all sit back and watch him commit genocide, while we clutch our pearls. All because we believe he is crazy enough to start Armageddon.

Each day, Putin's mouthpieces offer idle threats about what will happen with each escalation. All of it bullshit.

NATO and non NATO nations should have put this to rest on day one.

Perhaps it was wise to progress slowly and garner worldwide support?

Right now, 40% of Ukraine's infrastructure is gone. At what point do we stop clutching?

I cannot argue with any of that. Ukraine should have been made part of NATO decades ago - before they invaded Crimea. It would have prevented all of this.