"We are fighting against the genocide of the Russian-speaking population" - Rus. Com.

[Taichiliberal]

Isn't this similar to the BS the Russian's used to invade Afghanistan? I'm not saying the Ukrainian gov't were angels in dealing with the pro-Russian sections, but that does not condone invasion.

[Hawkeye10]

Isn't this similar to the BS the Russian's used to invade Afghanistan? I'm not saying the Ukrainian gov't were angels in dealing with the pro-Russian sections, but that does not condone invasion.

America is in no position to talk about unjustified invasions after Iraq, which was done on the back of lies.

[Hawkeye10]

A point that the Chinese make every day.

[Walt]

"We are fighting against the genocide of the Russian-speaking population" - Rus. Com.

Zelinskyy, the leader of Ukraine, is a Russian speaking Ukrainian. Odesa, a Russian speaking Ukrainian city fought hard to keep the Russians from invading. Russians are doing the best in areas that are easiest for an outside army to invade, with the number of Russian speakers seeming to have no effect on it.

By the way Zelinskyy is Jewish, so I would question the claim that Ukraine is taken over by Nazis.

[Walt]

A point that the Chinese make every day.

The Chinese claim that everyone who speaks Chinese, or has a historical link to speaking Chinese must be under one Chinese government. The Russians make a similar argument, as did the Nazis before them.

It is a hard argument for Americans to understand, much less agree with. There are dozens of English speaking countries with independence. We feel no need to submit to England.

[Taichiliberal]

Originally Posted by Taichiliberal View Post
Isn't this similar to the BS the Russian's used to invade Afghanistan? I'm not saying the Ukrainian gov't were angels in dealing with the pro-Russian sections, but that does not condone invasion.

America is in no position to talk about unjustified invasions after Iraq, which was done on the back of lies.

This is true.

[Phoenyx]

“Concart” has a point, your source, recognized propaganda site

"Recognized" by who?

And the “firing on institutions …………” is rather hypocritical given that the major thrust of Putin’s war effort is deliberately targeting civilian populations

Prior to Ukraine's bombing of the Crimea bridge, Putin had been taking great pains to avoid civilian infrastructure. It was only after that that they began targeting energy facilities in Ukraine. From what I have heard, they still avoid targetting places such as schools and hospitals, despite Kyiv's claims to the contrary.

[Phoenyx]

Russia has a history of attacking countries. They can never be trusted. They have done it a couple of times in the last few years.

I can't speak for other countries, but when it comes to Ukraine, the war there started long before Russia started its military operation this year. As I imagine you know, Ukraine has been in a civil war for the past 8 years, wherein most of the people dying are in eastern Ukraine, comprised mainly of Russian speaking Ukrainians as well as ethnic Russians. For 8 years, Russia tried to negotiate a diplomatic settlement, but it's now turned out that Ukraine and the west only negotiated the minsk agreements to give Ukraine time to build up their army:

Merkel: Minsk agreements were meant to 'give Ukraine time' | almayadeen.net

[Phoenyx]

As some here may know, I'm a pretty big fan of Canadian American journalist Eva K Bartlett. Recently, she joined RT in Donetsk to film a bit. In the following clip, she interviews Russia's Sparta Commander. She asks some questions, such as what they are fighting for. The Sparta Commander says the following:

**
For the truth, we are fighting for the truth. I always rather answer the question, "what are we fighting against?" We are fighting against injustice, against genocide, against this Russophobica that has formed in the Western world.

The genocide of the Russian-speaking population, the dissident population, those who do not think like them, nationalists, Nazis. Against the genocide of the civilian population, because there is no other way to call the enemy's firing on institutions such as the Kalinin hospital, the children's department where children are, schools, the city center, and the market district.

There is no other way to call it, this is precisely the genocide of the civilian population which they consider to be their Ukrainian population. That's how they love them - they kill them.
**

The full clip is here:

They were living in peace until Putin attacked Ukraine. Putin did not use that excuse. He pretended he was fighting Nazis.

How is a civil war peace? Furthermore, Putin made it explicitly clear that one of the reasons for his military operation was Ukrainian war against the Donbass population. Here's the part where he addresses it:

**
This brings me to the situation in Donbass. We can see that the forces that staged the coup in Ukraine in 2014 have seized power, are keeping it with the help of ornamental election procedures and have abandoned the path of a peaceful conflict settlement. For eight years, for eight endless years we have been doing everything possible to settle the situation by peaceful political means. Everything was in vain.

As I said in my previous address, you cannot look without compassion at what is happening there. It became impossible to tolerate it. We had to stop that atrocity, that genocide of the millions of people who live there and who pinned their hopes on Russia, on all of us. It is their aspirations, the feelings and pain of these people that were the main motivating force behind our decision to recognise the independence of the Donbass people’s republics.
**

Full transcript:
Transcript: Vladimir Putin’s Televised Address on Ukraine | Bloomberg

[Phoenyx]

As some here may know, I'm a pretty big fan of Canadian American journalist Eva K Bartlett. Recently, she joined RT in Donetsk to film a bit. In the following clip, she interviews Russia's Sparta Commander. She asks some questions, such as what they are fighting for. The Sparta Commander says the following:

**
For the truth, we are fighting for the truth. I always rather answer the question, "what are we fighting against?" We are fighting against injustice, against genocide, against this Russophobica that has formed in the Western world.

The genocide of the Russian-speaking population, the dissident population, those who do not think like them, nationalists, Nazis. Against the genocide of the civilian population, because there is no other way to call the enemy's firing on institutions such as the Kalinin hospital, the children's department where children are, schools, the city center, and the market district.

There is no other way to call it, this is precisely the genocide of the civilian population which they consider to be their Ukrainian population. That's how they love them - they kill them.
**

"For the truth, we are fighting for the truth. I always rather answer the question, "what are we fighting against?" We are fighting against injustice, against genocide, against this Russophobica that has formed in the Western world."
So that's why they're targeting civilians and infrastructure in Ukrainian cities that are (especially ) now enthusiastically pro-West Ukrainians?

From what I have heard, they only target civilian energy infrastructure, despite Ukraine's claims to the contrary. They didn't even do that until Ukraine bombed the Crimea bridge. This was evidently clear in an article from Newsweek back in March:

Putin's Bombers Could Devastate Ukraine But He's Holding Back. Here's Why | Newsweek

"Against the genocide of the civilian population, because there is no other way to call the enemy's firing on institutions such as the Kalinin hospital, the children's department where children are, schools, the city center, and the market district."
Let's assume that's true. Why do they do the exact same to a sovereign country in far away cities that are no threat to Russia?

Do they, or has the Ukrainian government been lying? I believe that it's the latter, except in a few cases where the Ukrainian government has been using hospitals and other non military facilities for their military? I've even heard of cases that strongly suggest that the Ukrainian army itself committed false flag operations.

"There is no other way to call it, this is precisely the genocide of the civilian population which they consider to be their Ukrainian population. That's how they love them - they kill them."
And that's exactly how Putin and his henchmen consider the Ukrainians. They are their Russian brothers whom they love so deeply they murder them. On their own soil..

No. From the start, Putin has made it clear that one of the reasons they started this military operation was to defend the Donbass republics, which are mainly composed of Russian speakers and ethnic Russians. Had Ukraine not initiated a renewed assault on these republics days before Putin started his military opeartion, I strongly suspect Putin wouldn't have started it at all.

Really Phoenyx. I realize you are slightly pro-Russia in this war but I thought you were more objective than to post such blatant propaganda as this. It's waaay too simplistic.
The origins of this war can be traced as far back as Russian violation of the Budapest Memorandum.

The Budapest Memorandum occurred long before Ukraine started killing thousands of its own citizens in the east, many of whom are Russian speaking and ethnic Russians. Russia toiled to try to resolve the situation diplomatically for 8 years with the Minsk agreements before deciding that the Ukrainian government was never going to implement the terms in the agreement. Recently, we've now found out that the Ukrainian government in Kyiv had only agreed to them to buy time to strengthen its army.

[Cypress]

If Putin cared about the welfare of Russian speakers, he wouldn't have turned Marupiel, Kharkiv, and thousands of villages and settlements in the Russian-speaking part of Ukraine into smouldering piles of ash.

[Phoenyx]

You should read this. It's a little slanted toward Russia (to your liking) but quite objective.
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order...st-memorandum/

I read the first 2 paragraphs of Steven Pifer's article. He doesn't even -mention- Euromaidan/Maidan in it, never mind how that started the civil war that raged for 8 years prior to Russia finally deciding that diplomatic initiatives to resolve the crisis were going nowhere.

Looking at the brookings site, I see that Pifer had written an article on Maidan several months before the article you site, back in February 2019:
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order...an-revolution/

Once again, he gets it wrong, apparently blaming the civil war on Russia, when it was Ukraine and its western allies who'd been bombarding the Donbass republics for years by that point.

[anonymoose]

I read the first 2 paragraphs of Steven Pifer's article. He doesn't even -mention- Euromaidan/Maidan in it, never mind how that started the civil war that raged for 8 years prior to Russia finally deciding that diplomatic initiatives to resolve the crisis were going nowhere.

Looking at the brookings site, I see that Pifer had written an article on Maidan several months before the article you site, back in February 2019:
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order...an-revolution/

Once again, he gets it wrong, apparently blaming the civil war on Russia, when it was Ukraine and its western allies who'd been bombarding the Donbass republics for years by that point.

Gee, you really believe Kiev with Western aid just bombed eastern Ukraine for no other reason than to kill ethnic Russians?
Fact is neither of us can know the reality of the situation in eastern Ukraine unless we lived there for 10, 15 or more years.
I have no doubt there are/were Russian speakers there that wanted to live in a democracy.
Hell there’s Russians in Russia that want that, especially the younger ones.

If Russia had free elections there’s zero chance Putin would be the president for life.
Imagine trump being president for life with total control of the press. What percent of Americans would be for that?

[Phoenyx]

Eva Karene Bartlett is an American Canadian activist, commentator, and blogger who has propagated conspiracy theories in connection to the Syrian civil war,[1][2][3] most notably the disproven allegation that the White Helmets stage rescues and "recycle" children in its videos.[1][4][5][6]

Bartlett describes herself as an "independent writer and rights activist."[4] She writes commentary pieces for Russian state-controlled RT's website.[note 1][8][9] Critics contend that her advocacy amounts to participation in a disinformation campaign aimed at lessening the responsibility of the Assad regime for the acts of indiscriminate killing during the war, and to promote pro-Kremlin content in relation to the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.[10] Her posts on social media have been tagged with the disclaimer that her writings "may be partially or wholly under the editorial control of the Russian government."[11]

Bartlett has been living in Russia since 2019. She has been making videos and posts on social media from Ukraine during the Russian invasion, sometimes with journalists from RT. She often appears as a guest on RT. She has been criticised for spreading Kremlin propaganda and misinformation.[10][12]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Bartlett

I've dealt with criticism of Eva Bartlett in another forum and with that Wikipedia quote as well. I imagine that, like in the other forum I was in, it will come up again, and so instead of addressing your point here, I've decided it would be best to create another thread on the subject of Eva Bartlett, something I did in another forum in the past as well. I also decided I'd prefer not to have to deal with the usual ad hominem attacks that tend to dominate discussions of controversial people, and so have created the thread in the APP subforum here. If you'd like to discuss her, I invite you to do so in the thread I created for her here:

Canadian American Journalist Eva Bartlett | justplainpolitics.com

[Cypress]

As I imagine you know, Ukraine has been in a civil war for the past 8 years

Every sovereign country on the planet has the right to use military force to put down an internal insurrection.

The United States has done it several times, most recently in a four year war to suppress an insurrection in the southern states.