"We are fighting against the genocide of the Russian-speaking population" - Rus. Com.

[Hawkeye10]

As I mentioned before, in the case of the Mariupol hospital, there's evidence that the Ukrainian military was using the Mariupol hospital as a base of operations, making it a military target.

In contrast, the Ukrainian military has targeted Donetsk hospitals where there was no evidence that they were being used by soldiers, giving them no legitimate reason to target them. I posted copious amounts of evidence for all of this in post #32.

I dont know about that but I do know that the Ukrainians are at least nearly as brutal as the Russians.....these are not remotely the Good Guys. Also overall Ukraine is a very corrupt very poorly run nation which the oligarchs rule with an iron fist.

Most Americans dont know this, and I blame them....sure we get lied to constantly by our leaders and Mind Molders (nee journalists)...but I figured it out....they can too.

[Phoenyx]

Do you feel the same way about Britain's use of military force to try to put down the American insurrection, starting in 1775?

Trying to conflate the Kremlin-backed authoritarian Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) to Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin just doesn't pass the laugh test.

I'm not laughing. I imagine you never saw a documentary by a german team called Ukrainian Agony. It found it to be quite educational myself. It's here if you're interested:

No one has ever said Britain was not allowed to put up a fight to hold onto her colonies. They just ended up losing.

That they did. Do you think they should have won? Also, there's the matter of the American revolution getting support from Spain and France. Do you think they shouldn't have intervened?

[Phoenyx]

Ukraine is not in a civil war.

Ukraine was very much in a civil war for 8 years prior to Russia's intervention in the conflict, with military training and supplies from western nations for the western Ukrainian side. The only difference now is that Russia has joined the fray, helping the eastern Ukrainian side.

[serenity]

As some here may know, I'm a pretty big fan of Canadian American journalist Eva K Bartlett. Recently, she joined RT in Donetsk to film a bit. In the following clip, she interviews Russia's Sparta Commander. She asks some questions, such as what they are fighting for. The Sparta Commander says the following:

**
For the truth, we are fighting for the truth. I always rather answer the question, "what are we fighting against?" We are fighting against injustice, against genocide, against this Russophobica that has formed in the Western world.

The genocide of the Russian-speaking population, the dissident population, those who do not think like them, nationalists, Nazis. Against the genocide of the civilian population, because there is no other way to call the enemy's firing on institutions such as the Kalinin hospital, the children's department where children are, schools, the city center, and the market district.

There is no other way to call it, this is precisely the genocide of the civilian population which they consider to be their Ukrainian population. That's how they love them - they kill them.
**

The full clip is here:

there are two ways to change what people mind ancestrally forward throughout history since dawn of civilization. Denying now is eternity or adapting to the moment. Those denying now is eternity will not tolerate an ancestor discussing self evident changes mutually shared by all 5 generation gaps equally being timed apart now.

the instinctive sole seek balance, not favorite side so everyone can exist in real time knowing what they are equally up against, Living doesn't exceed evolving forward now.

[Phoenyx]

I never made that claim. As to why Kiev/Kyiv decided to start a military operation on its own people back in 2014, I'd say the primary factor was the new government administration that was put into place after Ukrainian President Yanukovych fled from his life after the violent protests in Euromaidan. There's one documentary on the war in Donbass that was done by a German journalist team that I thought was quite good. Veterans Today has an article on it, as well as a link to the film itself here:
Ukrainian Agony, the Concealed War (full length video) | Veterans Today

Veterans Today is an American anti-Semitic and conspiracy theory website. It describes itself as a "military veterans and foreign affairs journal", but the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) had said "the anti-Israel bent on VT can slide pretty quickly into overt anti-Semitism."[1] Multiple sources describe it as a pro-Kremlin outlet.[2][3]

Veterans Today was founded in 2003 "in opposition to the invasion of Iraq." According to Politico, the site "soon began publishing wild conspiracy theories" and "has consistently published articles that push the Kremlin party line".[2] It has ties with the Iranian state-backed Press TV
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_Today

Let's break those sentences down:
**
Veterans Today is an American anti-Semitic and conspiracy theory website.
**

Did you notice that Wikipedia doesn't even list a source for those claims? It's got the same legitimacy as someone here making that type of claim of any organization.

**
It describes itself as a "military veterans and foreign affairs journal", but the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) had said "the anti-Israel bent on VT can slide pretty quickly into overt anti-Semitism."[1]
**

This claim comes from a Southern Poverty Law Center article. The article brings up several things that VT has allegedly done. If VT did actually accuse Julian Assange of being a pawn, I'd disagree with them there, but I do believe that Israeli intelligence was involved in 9/11. Believing that doesn't imply anti semitism just as believing that a small faction with the U.S. government was involved doesn't imply anti americanism.

**
Multiple sources describe it as a pro-Kremlin outlet.[2][3]
**

Those "multiple sources" are an article from Politico, which relies on anonymous "experts". The second is a newspaper article that can't be accessed online, so I have no idea who their source(s) is/are.

**
Veterans Today was founded in 2003 "in opposition to the invasion of Iraq." According to Politico, the site "soon began publishing wild conspiracy theories" and "has consistently published articles that push the Kremlin party line".[2]
**

Have you noticed the fact that the reference here is [2], which is the exact same reference as the previous link that's accessible online? You know, the one with the anonymous "experts"?

**
It has ties with the Iranian state-backed Press TV
**

Notice that once again, there is no reference number for this claim.

[Nordberg]

I dont know about that but I do know that the Ukrainians are at least nearly as brutal as the Russians.....these are not remotely the Good Guys. Also overall Ukraine is a very corrupt very poorly run nation which the oligarchs rule with an iron fist.

Most Americans dont know this, and I blame them....sure we get lied to constantly by our leaders and Mind Molders (nee journalists)...but I figured it out....they can too.

It seems that if you get your homeland attacked by another country, your cities were blown apart, and death in the streets, you lose your manners.

[Phoenyx]

I never made that claim. As to why Kiev/Kyiv decided to start a military operation on its own people back in 2014, I'd say the primary factor was the new government administration that was put into place after Ukrainian President Yanukovych fled from his life after the violent protests in Euromaidan. There's one documentary on the war in Donbass that was done by a German journalist team that I thought was quite good. Veterans Today has an article on it, as well as a link to the film itself here:
Ukrainian Agony, the Concealed War (full length video) | Veterans Today

When asked about his approach to his work and the censorship policy in the Donbass region, Mr. Möbius replied: "Let's not kid ourselves. We are in a propaganda war – over there and here in Germany."

https://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/...-mails/seite-4
Mirko Möbius under the pseudoname Mark Bartalmai, is the 'journalist" that narrates the movie. As I'm sure you well know. Just posted that for others on the board.

Your use of quotes around the word journalist suggests you don't believe Mark Bartalmai is actually a journalist. Do you have any evidence that this is so? Your link says nothing about his journalist credentials not being accurate.

Fact is neither of us can know the reality of the situation in eastern Ukraine unless we lived there for 10, 15 or more years.

I don't think so, though reading articles and watching documentaries from people who have lived there for a time is certainly important in my view.

Yet you have no idea what the truth is.

How are you so sure?

You only believe Russian propaganda and not Western propaganda.

I used to read a lot more articles from RT, and I still think they have some good ones. But over time, I've focused more of my reading time on western sources, such as Scheerpost and Canadian and American journalists abroad such as Eva Bartlett. I view these sources as having a thorough understanding of the western world, having lived in it for most if not all of their lives, its strengths and its weaknesses.

Sure. I'm personally glad that Russia decided to take the step to hold referendums in the 4 Ukrainian regions where they control some territory to see if they'd like to join Russia. People may contest the results, but the fact that Russia put a good amount of energy into holding referendums at all is a very positive sign in my view.

Sure , a positive sign for the Russian view. Ukraine is a sovereign state.

Ukraine has been in a civil war for the past 8 years, with much of eastern Ukrainian fighting to be independent of it. The American Revolution took 8 years as well- do you think the Americans should have just followed orders from the UK and laid down their arms after that time? Do you think it was wrong of France and Spain to help Americans in their fight for independence?

Russia has no business holding referendums in Ukraine. Can you imagine the U.S. holding referendums in Canada or Mexico and anybody viewing that as a positive sign?

I can if Russia aided and abetted a coup of the Canadian government and then the new Russia backed government started attacking eastern Canada because they didn't go along with the coup.

If Russia had free elections there’s zero chance Putin would be the president for life.

How are you so sure?

Look at the historical electoral maps of Putin's wins. In 2012 and 2018 not one Russian state voted in favor of another opponent. Not one. Even Reagan never won with that kind of a landslide.
That reeks to high heaven. Add to that political opposition to Putin are poisoned on foreign soil. There's other obvious signs, too many to go into.

You haven't actually presented any evidence that Putin wouldn't have won his elections. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Putin has no skeletons in his closet. I actually saw a documentary on Putin that didn't exactly paint him in a flattering light. But it's one thing to say that he's got his dark side and another thing entirely to present evidence that he wouldn't have won his elections.

Imagine trump being president for life with total control of the press. What percent of Americans would be for that?

I certainly wouldn't be, though I'm not an American.

I strongly suspect you're a Russian nationalist, like Fabius Bile who outright admitted the goal of the war for Russia is to turn Ukraine into a field.
Or you are Fabius' sock.

I've been posting in forums for around 20 years now. I'm still in a forum where I've posted for over a decade with the same name as here. Here's the first post I made there:
https://debatepolitics.com/threads/w...ost-1060764613

As you can see, it had nothing to do with Russia.

Here's what I know for a fact, propaganda from both sides aside:
Russia invaded Ukraine with the goal of installing a pro-Kremlin govt. Evidenced by their ill fated assault on Kiev.

There is some debate as to whether they were really trying to take Kiev or just constrain Ukraine's forces. Even if they -were- trying to take Kiev, that doesn't mean that they would install a pro-Kremlin govt., though they would probably dictate terms for peace. In any case, it's no secret that the Ukrainian government wanted to retake the parts of Eastern Ukraine they hadn't yet retaken from seperatists and install a pro-western Ukrainian government. As a matter of fact, there's evidence suggesting that it was the Ukrainian government's last military assault on the Donbass Republics that got Putin to decide that he should intervene militarily in defense of said Republics.

Ukraine is putting up a strong and spirted resistance they wouldn't be able to do without Western aid. You can't convince me that many Ukrainian soldiers are nazis.

Even though the mainstream media admitted as much before Russia's military operation? Here's one such article:

Ukraine's Nazi problem is real, even if Putin's 'denazification' claim isn't | NBC News

Hundreds of thousands of Russian fled their country during the first mobilization last , September was it? Even Americans didn't leave the country en masse like that when the Vietnam War draft began. That tells me there's a lot of opposition to your war.

First of all, it's not my war in the sense that I played no part in starting it. And I've certainly made it clear in the past that I wasn't happy with Russia's conscriptions. But Russia is hardly the only country to force people to go to war in Ukraine. Ukraine went much furthering, forbidding military aged men from leaving the country the day after Russia started its military operation and has certainly contributed its share to forced enlistments:

Reports: Ukraine bans all male citizens ages 18 to 60 from leaving the country | USA Today

The -reason- so many Russians left Ukraine is because they were allowed to. Only a single day after Russia entered the war, Ukraine forbid Ukrainian men from doing the same.

Speaking of opposition to your war, its against the law to even protest it. Why is that? Is it because your "democratically" "elected" ruler can't handle the truth?
It's even been against the law to call it a war, which in fact Putin did accidentally.

When have I ever said that I support every measure Russia has taken in this war? I support the right of eastern Ukrainians to form a government that doesn't oppress their language and their culture and I generally support free speech.

Anecdotal but here it is.
There's a Ukrainian kid living with a family on my block a few houses away. Couldn't speak a word of English back in April yet hardly has a foreign accent now. Remarkable to me.
His father is back in Ukraine fighting the invaders. After he's finished high school in May he plans on joining the fight. He's hardly a nazi. He's said the mentality of Ukrainians is either to fight or die, or die fighting. There is no other choice.

There are multiple ways to fight. Not all of them involve weapons. I'm a strong believer that the pen is ultimately mightier than the sword. In regards to the kid you speak of, what I'd like to know is what he knows of the 8 year civil war in Ukraine that preceded Russia's military operation.

I met a Russian citizen when in California playing golf. During the round she got a text from her brother who had just crossed the border into Finland. After that he went into a tirade about how much she hated Putin and wished him dead.

Do you know if he went to Finland to avoid getting drafted into the war? If so, I can certainly understand his action. It's one thing for enlisted soldiers to go to a war. They did sign up for it voluntarily. It's quite another to be forced to go to war.

Your best friends in the world are the Iranian govt. (not the people) and North Korea.

No, they are not my best friends.

I'll add one more thing. Your war has created a hatred of Russian by Ukrainians for generations to come.

Again, not my war. As to it creating a hatred of Russian by Ukrainians, that happened long before Russia intervened militarily. The Ukrainian military had been appropriating the property of ethnic Russians long before Russia started its military operation. Zelensky even joked about it before he was President. He also joked about Ukraine's nazi problem as well. Take a look for yourself:



There's an article that goes into detail on this comedy skit from Zelensky. I've included some if it below:

**
Zelensky is reading a fictional letter from someone serving in one of the ultranationalist military brigades:

HE SAYS THINGS ARE BETTER BECAUSE HE IS “IN THE RANKS OF THE BANDERITES.”

The Banderites are the ultra-right, ultranationalist, neo-Nazi groups which were converted into national guard battalions during the civil war after the 2014 coup. Stepan Bandera has been promoted to a national hero in Ukraine since independence. He was one of the leaders of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army which cooperated with the German Nazis in the second world war, which was responsible for the massacre of Poles, Jews, Russians, and others at the time and before the war.

Per Anders Rudling, a historian specializing in the areas of nationalism, wrote in “The OUN, the UPA and the Holocaust: A Study in the Manufacturing of Historical Myths:”

“During the past decade, particularly under the presidency of the third Ukrainian president Viktor Yushchenko (2005–2010) there have been repeated attempts to turn the leading figures of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) and its armed wing, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) into national heroes. As these fascist organizations collaborated with the Nazi Germany, carried out ethnic cleansing and mass murder on a massive scale, they are problematic symbols for an aspiring democracy with the stated ambition to join the European Union.”

HE ADDS “MY SALARY IS SMALL BUT THAT IS NOT A PROBLEM SINCE WE ARE ALLOWED TO TAKE MONEY AND PROPERTY FROM THEN RUSSIANS.”

The revival of neo-Nazi Ukrainian heroes together with the involvement of thugs, football hooligans, etc., has produced brutish behaviour in Ukrainian society. During the leadup to the 2014 coup these thugs intimidated elected councils and businesses. They often beat up politicians they disliked. They will tie people they consider criminals (e.g. looters) or pro-Russian to lampposts to be abused by passers-by.

The ultranationalists often intimidate people as part of their campaign against the use of the Russian language.

“EARLIER THE SAME APPLIED TO THE JEWS. BUT THEN THE MAIN BANDERA MAN KOLOMOYSKI PROHIBITED IT.”

Ihor Kolomoyskyi is one of the richest oligarchs in Ukraine and helped to get Zelensky elected. He is also a funder of one of some of the neo-Nazi military groups. Kolomovski is also a Jew.

This underlines the point that neo-Nazis are not about attacking Jews – they have moved on. In Ukraine, they attack other minorities, the Roma for example, but their main concern is with the largest ethnic minority – Russians. Their attacks range from bullying over language, kidnap and even murder of officials they consider “pro-Russian,” to their involvement in the war against Russian speaking separatists since 2014.

“I AM LEARNING ENGLISH TO FORGET RUSSIAN WITH THE HELP OF AMERICAN MERCENARIES; THEY’RE ALL OVER THE PLACE.”
The USA has been involved in Ukraine ever since independence in the early 90s. They have been happy to support the anti-Russian prejudices promoted by Banderites and the evidence is that the USA was involved in the anti-democratic coup in February 2014.

“OUR PRESIDENT, THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE BARACK OBAMA, HAS PROMISED THAT WE WILL JOIN NATO SOON, AS AN AMERICAN HENCHMAN OF COURSE.”

Interesting aside there. Ukraine was never a serious candidate for NATO membership but was in fact incorporated into NATO in all but name. NATO training, arms supplies and intelligence. In the current war, one can say the aim of the Americans is to fight to the last Ukrainian in their attempt to destroy Russia.

“IF YOU CAN PLEASE SEND ME HITLER’S BOOK “MEIN KAMPF.” THEY ARE SOLD OUT HERE.”

The capture of headquarters occupied by neo-Nazi groups like the Azov Battalion, Aidar Batallion, Right Sector, etc., reveals that these groups are reading classical fascist literature.

Interestingly, the manifesto of the Christchurch terrorist, Tarrant, while banned in New Zealand, was translated into eastern European languages and is used by groups like the Azov Battalion. During the shooting, Tarrant wore a flak jacket with a symbol commonly used by the Azov Battalion which even the New York Times describes as “a Ukrainian neo-Nazi paramilitary organization.”
**

Full article:
Neo-Nazis in Ukraine. Comedians are often more truthful than politicians. | Open Parachute

[Phoenyx]

As I mentioned before, in the case of the Mariupol hospital, there's evidence that the Ukrainian military was using the Mariupol hospital as a base of operations, making it a military target.

In contrast, the Ukrainian military has targeted Donetsk hospitals where there was no evidence that they were being used by soldiers, giving them no legitimate reason to target them. I posted copious amounts of evidence for all of this in post #32.

I dont know about that but I do know that the Ukrainians are at least nearly as brutal as the Russians.....these are not remotely the Good Guys.

From what I've seen, they're much more so. From what I've seen, they have been targetting civilian infrastructure and civilians themselves in Eastern Ukraine for some time now. Their former President is rather infamous for saying the following:



Here's the transcript:

**
0:00 Because we will have our jobs – they will not.
0:04 We will have our pensions – they will not.
0:06 We will have care for children, for people and retirees – they will not.
0:11 Our children will go to schools and kindergartens...
0:14 ...theirs will hole up in the basements.
0:17 Because they are not able to do a thing.
0:20 This is exactly how we will win this war!
**

Their strategy hasn't changed. As mentioned in post #32, they attacked 2 hospitals in Donetsk that I've seen no evidence had any military personnel in them. Their idea seems to be if they terrorize civilians enough, they will win.

Also overall Ukraine is a very corrupt very poorly run nation which the oligarchs rule with an iron fist.

Agreed. It's become so obvious that apparently the U.S. asked them to do a bit of window dressing recently. Journalist Patrick Lawrence believes that window dressing is all it is. He wrote an article about it yesterday, I created a thread to discuss it for anyone interested in taking a look:

Patrick Lawrence: The Shadows Descend in Ukraine | justplainpolitics.com

I see you've already responded to it :-)

Most Americans dont know this, and I blame them....sure we get lied to constantly by our leaders and Mind Molders (nee journalists)...but I figured it out....they can too.

To figure it out, they first have to listen those who are sounding the alarm bells. Hard to believe if they blindly trust the mainstream media, which tends to label anyone who strays from the mainstream narrative on Ukraine as a Russian propagandist.

[Phoenyx]

It seems that if you get your homeland attacked by another country, your cities were blown apart, and death in the streets, you lose your manners.

I'm sure that's how the Donbass Republics see it in relation to their western Ukrainian neighbours. Were you unaware that it was the Ukrainian military that first started a military operation against its own people back in 2014?

[Nordberg]

Putin is closing the borders to keep potential soldiers inside. The fact that he has to do that should tell you something.

[Phoenyx]

Putin is closing the borders to keep potential soldiers inside. The fact that he has to do that should tell you something.

There were certainly warnings that he would close his borders, but from what I've seen, it never happened. Do you have an article that shows that he did? Meanwhile, Zelensky closed the Ukrainian borders wanting to leave Ukraine a day after Russia started its military operation in Ukraine, on February 25th:

Reports: Ukraine bans all male citizens ages 18 to 60 from leaving the country | USA Today

In terms of border closings, the sad truth is that it is that it was western countries that had been closing their borders to Russians fleeing conscription:

Russia's neighbors move to close borders to Russians fleeing conscription | Axios

Here's the introduction to the article:

**
A number of Russia's neighboring countries moved to restrict entry for Russians this week as thousands of Russian men attempted to flee military conscription.
**

[Tranquillus in Exile]

I'm sure that's how the Donbass Republics see it in relation to their western Ukrainian neighbours. Were you unaware that it was the Ukrainian military that first started a military operation against its own people back in 2014?

Sept 15, 2022.
87% of Ukrainians oppose any territorial concessions to Russia according to a poll by a top Ukrainian polling organization. The survey conducted by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology showed an absolute majority of Ukrainians in every region were opposed to their country giving away territory under any circumstances, even if this meant prolonging the war.

The poll showed that 57% of Ukraine's ethnic Russians opposed making territorial concessions to Moscow. Only 24% of ethnic Russians supported giving up land to achieve peace

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ll-2022-09-15/

[Phoenyx]

I'm sure that's how the Donbass Republics see it in relation to their western Ukrainian neighbours. Were you unaware that it was the Ukrainian military that first started a military operation against its own people back in 2014?

Sept 15, 2022.
87% of Ukrainians oppose any territorial concessions to Russia according to a poll by a top Ukrainian polling organization. The survey conducted by the Kyiv International Institute of Sociology showed an absolute majority of Ukrainians in every region were opposed to their country giving away territory under any circumstances, even if this meant prolonging the war.

The poll showed that 57% of Ukraine's ethnic Russians opposed making territorial concessions to Moscow. Only 24% of ethnic Russians supported giving up land to achieve peace

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe...ll-2022-09-15/

And you, ofcourse, trust Ukraine completely. I took a look at your reuters article. Did you notice that it doesn't even mention how many people were polled? I'm also curious to know whether a single polled person was currently living in Russian controlled areas.

Meanwhile, Russia's elections in portions of the 4 regions they control show a very different picture:

**
According to the results released by the Russian Central Election Commission through its sections in the DPR and the LPR, 99.23% (2,116,800 voters) supported the annexation in Donetsk and 98.42% (1,636,302 voters) in Luhansk. The turnouts were 97.51% (2,131,207 voters) and 94.15% (1,662,607 voters), respectively.[45][46][47]

[snip]

According to the figures released by the Kherson regional section of the Russian Central Election Commission, 87.05% (497,051) supported the annexation to the Russian Federation, with 12.05% (68,832) against and 0.9% of ballots invalid, on a turnout of 76.86%.[62][45] They claim 571,001 voters took part.[46]

[snip]

On 27 September, Russian officials of the Central Election Commission in Zaporizhzhia claimed that the referendum passed, with 93.11% (of 541,093 voters) favoured joining the Russian Federation.[72][46] The turnout was 85.4%.[73] According to the data provided by the commission, the support for the annexation was 90.01% in the Melitopol Raion, while in its administrative center, Melitopol, it was 96.78%.[74]
**

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_a...cupied_Ukraine

[Taichiliberal]

I caught this the other night on FrontLine. Gives a good perspective on this situation (although a bit heavy on the sensationalism in the opening, I think).

[Hawkeye10]