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Thread: Settling the Biological Virus Debate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenyx View Post
    As the dominant paradigm, I believe it should be up to those who believe that biological viruses exist to provide compelling evidence that this is so, not the other way around.
    That isn't the way science works.
    Copernicus didn't demand that scientists prove their method was right. He proved they were wrong by proving his was right.
    When the scientific consensus thinks something, it is up to the person claiming that they are wrong prove they are wrong by showing their theory better fits the facts.
    The opinion of Dr Bailey and others doesn't better fit the facts. Their opinion ignores many of the facts. They don't explain how the disease is transmitted if viruses don't exist.
    That is an extremely large hole in their claims. A hole you seem willing to completely ignore. It can't be poison because poison loses potency as it spreads. So what is it that causes the disease? Your arguments so far have not addressed this major problem.

    No, you have evidence of people claiming to sequence viruses. It's not the same thing as providing compelling evidence that this is actually the case. Part of the issue is the very definition of sequencing in this case. As mentioned previously, the doctors I reference in the opening post have provided a method wherein the medical establishment could try to prove that biological viruses do in fact exist. As far as I know, no one has taken them up on their offer.
    I have hundreds of scientific papers published in scientific journals and the procedures in those papers have been duplicated thousands of times with no one attempting to duplicate them claiming they can't be duplicated.
    That is the way science works. It can be duplicated by others. Care to tell us who has attempted to sequence a virus and never been able to do it because the process doesn't work?
    It is the exact same process used to sequence DNA. The DNA is cut into snippets, it is then amplified and thousands of snippets are read and then reassembled by a computer to give the DNA result for a paternity test. Unless you are arguing that your one author is wrong about paternity tests being valid, you have no argument that RNA of viruses hasn't been sequenced. (Your author doesn't seem to know how DNA is sequenced. They don't pull one strand out of one cell and only read that one strand.)

    No. I believe that some of the original people who started the notion that microbes were the predominent cause for illness were frauds, such as Louis Pasteur. After that, a lot of those in the medical field simply believed what he had to say. Some if not all of the doctors involved in the statement from the opening post actually believed in biological viruses at first as well, as did I. It was only after they started examining the evidence of biological viruses that they found this evidence severely wanting.
    Koch's work built on Pasteur. You can't claim Pasteur is a fraud and then argue that viruses don't exist because they can't be isolated using Koch's postulates.
    "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid."

    "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Richard Saunders View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenyx View Post
    Apparently you've forgotten that the doctors I'm referring to signed off on a statement providing a method for those who believe in biological viruses to try to prove they exist. I mentioned this in the opening post.
    Signing off on a method that isn't applicable only proves how stupid they are
    An unsubstantiated assertion (that the method the doctors use isn't applicable), followed by an ad hominem attack. With an opening sentence like that, I think I'll skip the rest.
    "Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it" - Andre Gide

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    Quote Originally Posted by Concart View Post
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3427559/

    **
    There are 219 virus species that are known to be able to infect humans. The first of these to be discovered was yellow fever virus in 1901, and three to four new species are still being found every year. Extrapolation of the discovery curve suggests that there is still a substantial pool of undiscovered human virus species, although an apparent slow-down in the rate of discovery of species from different families may indicate bounds to the potential range of diversity.
    **
    Are you familiar with the tale of the Emperor's new clothes? Just in case you or someone else in the audience isn't familiar with it, I'll quote from Wikipedia:

    **
    Two swindlers arrive at the capital city of an emperor who spends lavishly on clothing at the expense of state matters. Posing as weavers, they offer to supply him with magnificent clothes that are invisible to those who are stupid or incompetent. The emperor hires them, and they set up looms and go to work. A succession of officials, and then the emperor himself, visit them to check their progress. Each sees that the looms are empty but pretends otherwise to avoid being thought a fool.

    Finally, the weavers report that the emperor's suit is finished. They mime dressing him and he sets off in a procession before the whole city. The townsfolk uncomfortably go along with the pretense, not wanting to appear inept or stupid, until a child blurts out that the emperor is wearing nothing at all. The people then realize that everyone has been fooled. Although startled, the emperor continues the procession, walking more proudly than ever.

    **

    Source:
    The Emperor's New Clothes | Wikipedia

    What we have with viruses is the equivalent, with "master" spinsters cooking up new viruses all the time. The fact of the matter, however, is that no virus has ever objectively been shown to exist. Dr. Sam Bailey wrote a good article on the subject here:

    What is a Virus? | drsambailey.com

    For those who prefer videos, she's done one on the subject here:
    "Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it" - Andre Gide

  4. #274 | Top
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Richard Saunders View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenyx View Post
    As the dominant paradigm, I believe it should be up to those who believe that biological viruses exist to provide compelling evidence that this is so, not the other way around.

    No, you have evidence of people claiming to sequence viruses. It's not the same thing as providing compelling evidence that this is actually the case. Part of the issue is the very definition of sequencing in this case. As mentioned previously, the doctors I reference in the opening post have provided a method wherein the medical establishment could try to prove that biological viruses do in fact exist. As far as I know, no one has taken them up on their offer.

    No. I believe that some of the original people who started the notion that microbes were the predominent cause for illness were frauds, such as Louis Pasteur. After that, a lot of those in the medical field simply believed what he had to say. Some if not all of the doctors involved in the statement from the opening post actually believed in biological viruses at first as well, as did I. It was only after they started examining the evidence of biological viruses that they found this evidence severely wanting.
    You have presented no evidence of fraud by anyone claiming to sequence the viruses.
    Strawman, I never claimed I'd presented such evidence. I said "I believe that some of the original people who started the notion that microbes were the predominent cause for illness were frauds, such as Louis Pasteur"

    Perhaps I should have limited myself to Louis Pasteur himself. A good article on his fraudulent activities:

    Louis Pasteur, Unchecked Fraud: The Unscientific Origins Of Germ Theory | earthdwellerdaily.com
    "Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it" - Andre Gide

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenyx View Post
    An unsubstantiated assertion (that the method the doctors use isn't applicable), followed by an ad hominem attack. With an opening sentence like that, I think I'll skip the rest.
    It would appear you have no defense for what they said.
    This is an example of how conspiracy nutcases work. You make a claim and then can't support it so resort to red herrings.
    "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid."

    "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenyx View Post
    Strawman, I never claimed I'd presented such evidence. I said "I believe that some of the original people who started the notion that microbes were the predominent cause for illness were frauds, such as Louis Pasteur"

    Perhaps I should have limited myself to Louis Pasteur himself. A good article on his fraudulent activities:

    Louis Pasteur, Unchecked Fraud: The Unscientific Origins Of Germ Theory | earthdwellerdaily.com
    I see you have decided to use Into The Night's tactics of simply declaring logical fallacies while never defending your statements.

    You have presented no evidence of fraud by the thousands that have sequences millions of viruses. The fact that you have accused them of fraud but now admit you will not be presenting any evidence of their fraud points to your argument being the one that is void of any actual evidence.

    If germ theory is a fraud then Koch's postulates must also be a fraud since they rely on germ theory. If Koch's postulates are a fraud then requiring a fraud be used to prove the existence of viruses would appear to be illogical beyond belief.

    Let's put this in perspective. You are arguing that germ theory is a fraud while at the same time one of the basic tenets of germ theory must be used before you will believe viruses exist. You have no other argument at this point. You have shown the only fraud is you.
    "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid."

    "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenyx View Post
    Are you familiar with the tale of the Emperor's new clothes? Just in case you or someone else in the audience isn't familiar with it, I'll quote from Wikipedia:

    **
    Two swindlers arrive at the capital city of an emperor who spends lavishly on clothing at the expense of state matters. Posing as weavers, they offer to supply him with magnificent clothes that are invisible to those who are stupid or incompetent. The emperor hires them, and they set up looms and go to work. A succession of officials, and then the emperor himself, visit them to check their progress. Each sees that the looms are empty but pretends otherwise to avoid being thought a fool.

    Finally, the weavers report that the emperor's suit is finished. They mime dressing him and he sets off in a procession before the whole city. The townsfolk uncomfortably go along with the pretense, not wanting to appear inept or stupid, until a child blurts out that the emperor is wearing nothing at all. The people then realize that everyone has been fooled. Although startled, the emperor continues the procession, walking more proudly than ever.

    **

    Source:
    The Emperor's New Clothes | Wikipedia

    What we have with viruses is the equivalent, with "master" spinsters cooking up new viruses all the time. The fact of the matter, however, is that no virus has ever objectively been shown to exist. Dr. Sam Bailey wrote a good article on the subject here:

    What is a Virus? | drsambailey.com

    For those who prefer videos, she's done one on the subject here:
    You certainly have no clothes at this point.
    You have no evidence of fraud by the thousands that have sequenced millions of viruses.
    You accept the process of DNA sequencing but deny the process of RNA sequencing when they are the exact same process.
    You have argued that germ theory is a fraud while also arguing that viruses are a fraud because they can't meet the process used in germ theory.

    Not only are you naked. At this point you are running around trying to make sure everyone can see how naked you are.
    "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid."

    "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Richard Saunders View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenyx View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Richard Saunders View Post
    Signing off on a method that isn't applicable only proves how stupid they are.
    An unsubstantiated assertion (that the method the doctors use isn't applicable), followed by an ad hominem attack. With an opening sentence like that, I think I'll skip the rest.
    It would appear you have no defense for what they said.
    Good deflection, but I see through it. If you can't provide evidence that their method isn't valid, this conversation ends here.
    "Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it" - Andre Gide

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Richard Saunders View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenyx View Post
    Strawman, I never claimed I'd presented such evidence. I said "I believe that some of the original people who started the notion that microbes were the predominent cause for illness were frauds, such as Louis Pasteur"

    Perhaps I should have limited myself to Louis Pasteur himself. A good article on his fraudulent activities:

    Louis Pasteur, Unchecked Fraud: The Unscientific Origins Of Germ Theory | earthdwellerdaily.com
    I see you have decided to use Into The Night's tactics of simply declaring logical fallacies while never defending your statements.
    I disagree, I believe the above statement I made was a great defense of the statement I quoted. I also note that you didn't even try to defend Louis Pasteur. Do you agree that he was a fraud?
    "Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it" - Andre Gide

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Richard Saunders View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenyx View Post
    Are you familiar with the tale of the Emperor's new clothes? Just in case you or someone else in the audience isn't familiar with it, I'll quote from Wikipedia:

    **
    Two swindlers arrive at the capital city of an emperor who spends lavishly on clothing at the expense of state matters. Posing as weavers, they offer to supply him with magnificent clothes that are invisible to those who are stupid or incompetent. The emperor hires them, and they set up looms and go to work. A succession of officials, and then the emperor himself, visit them to check their progress. Each sees that the looms are empty but pretends otherwise to avoid being thought a fool.

    Finally, the weavers report that the emperor's suit is finished. They mime dressing him and he sets off in a procession before the whole city. The townsfolk uncomfortably go along with the pretense, not wanting to appear inept or stupid, until a child blurts out that the emperor is wearing nothing at all. The people then realize that everyone has been fooled. Although startled, the emperor continues the procession, walking more proudly than ever.

    **

    Source:
    The Emperor's New Clothes | Wikipedia

    What we have with viruses is the equivalent, with "master" spinsters cooking up new viruses all the time. The fact of the matter, however, is that no virus has ever objectively been shown to exist. Dr. Sam Bailey wrote a good article on the subject here:

    What is a Virus? | drsambailey.com

    For those who prefer videos, she's done one on the subject here:
    You certainly have no clothes at this point.
    You have no evidence of fraud by the thousands that have sequenced millions of viruses.
    I never claimed to have such evidence. Fraud implies that those doing the sequencing know that what they are claiming isn't true. I've never made that claim. But just because many people believe something is true doesn't make it so. Some of the originals in the germ theory vs. terrain theory were definitely frauds, however. Do you agree that Lous Pasteur was a fraud?
    "Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it" - Andre Gide

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Richard Saunders View Post
    I see you have decided to use Into The Night's tactics of simply declaring logical fallacies while never defending your statements.

    You have presented no evidence of fraud by the thousands that have sequences millions of viruses. The fact that you have accused them of fraud but now admit you will not be presenting any evidence of their fraud points to your argument being the one that is void of any actual evidence.

    If germ theory is a fraud then Koch's postulates must also be a fraud since they rely on germ theory. If Koch's postulates are a fraud then requiring a fraud be used to prove the existence of viruses would appear to be illogical beyond belief.

    Let's put this in perspective. You are arguing that germ theory is a fraud while at the same time one of the basic tenets of germ theory must be used before you will believe viruses exist. You have no other argument at this point. You have shown the only fraud is you.
    A precise and surgical defenstration of his position.

    Although I prefer to quote the words of the immortal SpongeBob Squarepants: 'Hey, we already PLAYED babbling like an idiot"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenyx View Post
    Good deflection, but I see through it. If you can't provide evidence that their method isn't valid, this conversation ends here.


    I have already shown that humans can exist as living creatures that multiply but cannot be proven to exist by Koch's postulates.
    Since one creature can exist then it is possible that others like viruses can exist without be proven by Koch's postulates.
    Stating that viruses don't exist because they can't be isolated by Koch's postulates is nonsense.

    Do humans exist even though they can't be isolated using Koch's postulate? This is some simple logic here.
    Koch's postulates apply to bacteria. They don't apply to humans, worms or viruses.
    Last edited by Poor Richard Saunders; 02-04-2023 at 12:48 PM.
    "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid."

    "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenyx View Post
    I disagree, I believe the above statement I made was a great defense of the statement I quoted. I also note that you didn't even try to defend Louis Pasteur. Do you agree that he was a fraud?
    What I believe is irrelevant since it is your argument we are discussing. Your attempt to deflect by not addressing my poking gaping holes in your arguments is what? An admission you can't defend your position?

    If as you claim Loius Pasteur is a fraud then Koch must also be a fraud since Koch's work built on Pasteur. If Koch is a fraud then you are demanding that we use a fraud to prove viruses exist. At this point your argument is completely bereft of any substance. Your attempt to deflect is noted. Your failure to defend your argument is noted.
    Last edited by Poor Richard Saunders; 02-04-2023 at 12:48 PM.
    "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid."

    "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenyx View Post
    I never claimed to have such evidence. Fraud implies that those doing the sequencing know that what they are claiming isn't true. I've never made that claim. But just because many people believe something is true doesn't make it so. Some of the originals in the germ theory vs. terrain theory were definitely frauds, however. Do you agree that Lous Pasteur was a fraud?
    Since you have no evidence of fraud the tenets of logic and Occam's razor would indicate that thousands of people duplicating a process millions of times would be valid and true. What they believe isn't relevant. The results are what is relevant. Millions of times they have come up with the same sequences for particular viruses. For that to not be the result of sequencing those actual viruses would be impossible from a mathematical standpoint.

    Just because a few people think something isn't true doesn't make it so. Evidence to support their claim is what makes it so. Simply denying the overwhelming evidence doesn't make their claim true. The denial points to them being conspiracy theorists that can't defend their own position in any manner.
    "We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid."

    "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Poor Richard Saunders View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenyx View Post
    Good deflection, but I see through it. If you can't provide evidence that their method isn't valid, this conversation ends here.
    I have already shown that humans can exist as living creatures that multiply but cannot be proven to exist by Koch's postulates. Since one creature can exist then it is possible that others like viruses can exist without be proven by Koch's postulates. Stating that viruses don't exist because they can't be isolated by Koch's postulates is nonsense.
    I believe I remember you talking about Koch's postulates and humans. If you like, link me to that post and I'll check it out again. In any case, the team of doctors came up with their own criteria for looking for evidence of viruses. In the article referenced and linked to in the opening post, the signatury group of doctors outlined what I'll call their gold standard for detecting viruses:

    **

    The following experiments would need to be successfully completed before the viral theory can be deemed factual:
    1. a unique particle with the characteristics of a virus is purified from the tissues or fluids of a sick living being. The purification method to be used is at the discretion of the virologists but electron micrographs must be provided to confirm the successful purification of morphologically-identical alleged viral particles;
    2. the purified particle is biochemically characterized for its protein components and genetic sequence;
    3. the proteins are proven to be coded for by these same genetic sequences;
    4. the purified viral particles alone, through a natural exposure route, are shown to cause identical sickness in test subjects, by using valid controls;
    5. particles must then be successfully re-isolated (through purification) from the test subject at 4 above, and demonstrated to have exactly the same characteristics as the particles found in step 1.

    **

    However, they acknowledge that virologists or other interested parties probably won't do these steps and offer to meet them halfway:

    **
    However, we realize that the virologists may not take the steps outlined above, likely because all attempts to date have failed. They now simply avoid this experiment, insisting that what they say are “viruses” cannot be found in sufficient amounts in the tissues of any sick person or animal to allow such an analysis. Therefore, we have decided to meet the virologists half way. In the first instance, we propose that the methods in current use are put to the test. The virologists assert that these pathogenic viruses exist in our tissues, cells and bodily fluids because they claim to see the effects of these supposed unique particles in a variety of cell cultures. This process is what they call “isolation” of the virus. They also claim that, using electron microscopy, they can see these unique particles in the results of their cell cultures. Finally, they claim that each “species” of pathogenic virus has its unique genome, which can be sequenced either directly from the bodily fluids of the sick person or from the results of a cell culture. We now ask that the virology community prove that these claims are valid, scientific and reproducible. Rather than engaging in wasteful verbal sparring, let us put this argument to rest by doing clear, precise, scientific experiments that will, without any doubt, show whether these claims are valid.

    STEP ONE

    5 virology labs worldwide would participate in this experiment and none would know the identities of the other participating labs. A monitor will be appointed to supervise all steps. Each of the 5 labs will receive five nasopharyngeal samples from four categories of people (i.e. 20 samples each), who either:
    1) are not currently in receipt of, or being treated for a medical diagnosis;
    2) have received a diagnosis of lung cancer;
    3) have received a diagnosis of influenza A (according to recognized guidelines); or who
    4) have received a diagnosis of ‘COVID-19’ (through a PCR “test” or lateral flow assay.)
    Each person’s diagnosis (or “non-diagnosis”) will be independently verified, and the pathology reports will be made available in the study report. The labs will be blinded to the nature of the 20 samples they receive. Each lab will then attempt to “isolate” the viruses in question (Influenza A or SARS-CoV-2) from the samples or conclude that no pathogenic virus is present. Each lab will show photographs documenting the CPE (cytopathic effect), if present, and explain clearly each step of the culturing process and materials used, including full details of the controls or “mock-infections”. Next, each lab will obtain independently verified electron microscope images of the “isolated” virus, if present, as well as images showing the absence of the virus (presumably, in the well people and people with lung cancer). The electron microscopist will also be blinded to the nature of the samples they are analyzing. All procedures will be carefully documented and monitored.

    STEP TWO
    ALL of the samples will then be sent for genomic sequencing and once again the operators will remain blinded to the nature of their samples. It would be expected that if 5 labs receive material from the same sample of a patient diagnosed with COVID-19, each lab should report IDENTICAL sequences of the alleged SARS-CoV-2 genome. On the other hand, this genome should not be found in any other samples.

    (Note: this statement is a brief outline of the suggested experiments - a fully detailed protocol would obviously need to be developed and agreed upon by the laboratories and signatories.)


    If the virologists fail to obtain a satisfactory result from the above study, then their claims about detecting “viruses” will be shown to be unfounded. All of the measures put in place as a result of these claims should be brought to an immediate halt. If they succeed in this first task then we would encourage them to proceed to the required purification experiments to obtain the probative evidence for the existence of viruses.
    It is in the interest of everyone to address the issue of isolation, and the very existence, of alleged viruses such as SARS-CoV-2. This requires proof that the entry of morphologically and biochemically, virus-like particles into living cells is both necessary and sufficient to cause the appearance of the identical particles, which are contagious and disease causing.

    **
    "Trust those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it" - Andre Gide

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